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Messages - CheezWiz

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I think that because of past injustices many Blacks have failed to breach the boundary that separates the lower and middle classes.  I think that because of this a disproportionate number of Blacks are subject to an under funded education which fails to develop those two fundamental skills you spoke about.  I think that there are social factors that are a result of past and present injustices which cause many Blacks to fail in their primary education. Now, in addressing issues of higher education those Blacks that cannot benefit from Ugrad AA may end up at a sub-par institution which ill prepares them to perform well on the LSAT.   GPA’s are effected by the unstable foundation which poor primary educations create.

Is this the case for all Black people… NO!  But these are the realities for many.  Most certainly there is a cultural aspect which disvalues education in the black community which contributes to the underachievement of the race.  I think it is horrid that ideals of victimism and failure are propagated in the community from one generation to another.  But you think that those things originate with a fundamental genetic difference?  Absolutely not.  These are the effects of being told that you are too lowly or stupid to vote.  These are the effects of generations of denied education and employment.

As a Black man I would do away with AA.  But in order for that to happen we have to address issues which effect the race in general way before college is even considered.  Again, AA is not the best solution to address issues of social injustice which effect the race in general, but until we as a society agree to get just as angry about the injustices we create as the injustices which AA creates then the issue will never be resolved.

Agree or not this is the logic behind by comments.

P.S.  The discussion of the travesties which a race or group of people have been subject to and one’s feeling about them is never babble.

Cheez: How do you think that the past injustices towards blacks have contributed to denying you the ability to study for class, and read books in your free time(which would help lsat performance)?

I mean, we can babble on and on about what was done wrong in the past, but in the end we're only talking about two things: Your GPA, and your LSAT. Studying, and logical reasoning/reading ability.

If you think that genetics has nothing to do with anything, then what environmental factors cause this underperformance in blacks? Is it white people's fault that blacks don't read and study as much as they should? Or is it their culture and values which fail to promote those things as being worthwhile? What do you think?


i dont recal asking anyone to "get over it" as you mention

I was not quoting you as saying such but your comments about you or anybody’s parents never seeing a Whites only drinking fountain because that was over 50 years ago smacked of the “it was along time ago get over it" sentiment.  Perhaps I read too much into it.

but please dont look into (through) what i am saying and try to find things to get yourself worked up over. that aint the point of this thread.

It's not you, injustice in general tends to get me worked up.

Yes, I understand that there have been horrible things that you, your parents, and other minority groups have gone through in the course of their existence in this country.  However, those injustices were not part of the foundation of this country and were not propagated in the structural make-up of this country's constitution.  The effects of hate are indeed part of the human experience which we all feel in one form or another but that is just not the same as what American blacks have experienced.

I agree with you that AA is not an IOU or an apology for past wrongs, but it is the best (inadequate as it may be) way we have to counteract the effects of those wrongs.  I would love to see us (as a nation) address the reasons that something that ended 30 or 50 or 125 years ago is still affecting an entire segment of society wiht no other distinguishing factor than their race but as yet we have not.

Und here vee go…

We all had a fair chance all that’s different in your skin tone?

The “it was 50 years ago get over it” attitude disgusts me.  Indeed the fact that this country had separate water fountains for the black and white race in the early 1900’s IS a reason to have affirmative action.  Indeed there are those of us who have parents who had to endure horrible retched things which this nation condoned.  Yes, there are those of us who have grandparents who can remember days even darker than those our parents lived.  Slavery… SLAVERY ended in 1865.  We are only a few generations from being enslaved.  My grandparents were born in the 1930’s.  They had first hand account from people who were slaves.  My mother can tell me those stories.  Me, my mother/father, my grandparents, and then slaves.  I am only four generations removed from a time that my feet were shackled and you, gay or not, had a right to own me.  Get over it?

It was only 1965/66 fifteen years before I was born that blacks were given the right to vote and that right was enforced and protected.  Whose parents were born after 1965?  I grew up in a society that has only found my race (rich, poor, light, dark, or otherwise) acceptable to vote for 30 or so years!  This country disallowed MY FATHER his right to vote.  The right to shape the nation which his child (me) would have to live in.  He was not allowed to correct the injustices of his generation so you better believe they have effected my generation of Black Americans – whether or not they’ve seen a segregated water fountain!

We rage for the white man who feels he got cheated out of a place at an ivy league and tell the little Black boy that runs home every day after school for fear of being shot or forced to join a gang to get over it.  We talk about other peoples living in this country who have been disadvantaged or felt adversity but it’s not the same as living in the wake of such travesties which your nation condoned -- how dare you compare!

So why is it, and this point is still contested, that Blacks as a whole are performing poorer than whites when we know that they are just a capable biologically?  Do we address the underlying social implications and inferences which that has, figure out what social force is caused it and correct it, no we bemoan AA in the context of how it effects white men!

Get over it… I think not.

Are you close to this family member?

Actually yes... I can't bring myself to think that they had ill intentions but how else can one take this?

Black Law Students / Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« on: March 07, 2005, 08:13:34 AM »
I need help and opinion.  If you have the time (it's a long article) could you take a look at my post and reply:;topicseen#msg401223

- Thanks guys

I am the only black person on my mother's side of the family.  One of my family members from that side of the family sent me this article in the mail.  I've got yelled about it, got sad about it, and not I'm confused as to why the hell they would send me something like this.  The even highlighted (see below) the most negative sections!

How do I respond to this without rage?  Your thoughts on the article?
_____________________________ _____________________________ ___________

For Blacks in Law School, Can Less Be More?

Published in New York Times: February 13, 2005

NE would have thought, given the decades of ardent debate over affirmative action in higher education, that the main axes of the dispute had been established. Defenders of racial preferences say that they compensate for historical wrongs, ensure vibrant and varied campus discourse and help create minority role models and leaders. Opponents say preferences are nothing but a reverse form of discrimination that stereotypes and stigmatizes minority students.

But a recent study published in The Stanford Law Review by Richard H. Sander, a law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, has found a new way to inflame the debate. In fact, the study has ignited what may be the fiercest dispute over affirmative action since 2003, when the Supreme Court found some forms of it to be constitutional.

Professor Sander's study tests a simple, but startling, thesis: Affirmative action actually depresses the number of black lawyers, because many black students end up attending law schools that are too difficult for them, and perform badly.

If black law students were accepted to lesser law schools under race-blind admissions, Professor Sander writes, they would receive better grades and pass the bar in greater numbers. Even accounting for the many black students who could not attend any law school without affirmative action, the ultimate number of black lawyers would still increase, he concludes.

That assertion, which is based on a great deal of data, along with inference and speculation, has provoked an outpouring of written critiques from law professors, economists and social scientists. Several will be published in The Stanford Law Review's May issue.

Professor Sander, who is white, says he came to his conclusion reluctantly. He notes that he helped found a fair-housing group in Southern California and that his son is biracial. He says he "favors race-conscious strategies in principle, if they can be pragmatically justified."

His critics generally accept, and sometimes even praise, aspects of his empirical work. He shows three large gaps between black and white students: their academic credentials before entering law school, their grades in law school and their success on bar examinations.

But many critics dispute Professor Sander's assertion that the first gap - in undergraduate grades and L.S.A.T. scores - causes the next two, in law school grades and in rates of passing the bar.

The basic numbers are not in serious dispute.

Using a standard 1,000-point scale to reflect both L.S.A.T. scores and undergraduate grade-point averages, Professor Sander writes, the average black student's score was 130 to 170 points below that of the average white student.

Once at law school, the average black student gets lower grades than white students: 52 percent of black students are in the bottom 10th of their first-year law school classes, while only 8 percent are in the top half. And the grades of black students drop slightly in relative terms from the first year of law school to the third.

Black students are twice as likely as whites to fail to finish law school. Nineteen percent of the black students who started law school in 1991 had failed to graduate five years later; the corresponding figure for whites was 8 percent.

About 88 percent of all law students pass a bar exam on the first attempt; 95 percent pass eventually. For blacks, the corresponding figures are 61 percent and 78 percent.

Timothy T. Clydesdale, who teaches sociology at the College of New Jersey, says the law school environment, and not affirmative action, suppresses the grades of some law students.

"Something intrinsic to the structure or process of legal education affects the grades of all minorities," he writes in the fall issue of Law and Social Inquiry. Professor Clydesdale agrees with Professor Sander, however, that bar passage rates are determined primarily by law school grades.

Professor Sander concedes that 14 percent fewer black students would enter law school without preferences. But because more of those who do get in would get good grades at schools that are better suited to them, more would graduate, he said, yielding 8 percent more black lawyers.

The critics run their own numbers and conclude that without affirmative action, the number of black lawyers would fall anywhere from 9 percent to 35 percent.

James Lindgren, a law professor at Northwestern who has followed the debate, cautioned that none of these numbers should be taken seriously.

"In the real world, too many things would change," he said in an interview.

Professor Sander's study may be most vulnerable in its assessment of the top law schools, where the vast majority of law students of all races graduate and pass the bar.

For instance, Richard O. Lempert, a law professor at the University of Michigan, said that the university's law school had found little difference between its black and white students in rates of graduation, in passing the bar or in income afterward. "We think the fact that Michigan is an elite law school has a lot to do with it," he wrote in an e-mail message. "Sander's data, though he barely mentions it, convey essentially the same story. Thus his analysis provides no case for the Harvards, Yales and Columbias of this world to abandon affirmative action."

But the situation may be different at less prestigious schools.

Ian Ayres and Richard Brooks, two Yale Law School professors who are harshly critical of other aspects of the Sander study, used its data for their own study of law schools, which showed that 41.2 percent of black law students - based on their undergraduate credentials and the law schools they attend - have less than a fifty-fifty chance of becoming lawyers. The corresponding number for whites is 0.2 percent. "For some of these people," they write in a draft critique, "the investment in law school seems riskier than getting married in Las Vegas."

"While we reject Sander's conclusion that affirmative action has reduced the number of black attorneys," Professors Ayres and Brooks write, "we are more sympathetic to his idea that there is a class of black law students who shouldn't have gone to law school."

Wherever the debate ultimately leads, said Ed Johnson, a research economist at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Professor Sander's overall hypothesis is a valuable step in trying to understand a complex phenomenon.

"His story does seem to fit the data pretty well," Mr. Johnson said. "That doesn't mean it's true. But it's hard to come up with an alternative explanation. In his favor, he's told a story that's at least a story."

The "gay box" is on LSAC.  There is an entire section of the site devoted to connecting GLBT persons with schools that wish to attract them.  GLBT applicants can even self identify as such by checking "I self identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered"  on the CRS profile site.  CRS being the program that law schools use to recruit applicants they want.  Plus, I have seen many law school websites that have sections for GLBT prospects. 

Even more, just becasue the application doesn't have a box does not mean you can't send a statement of diversity.

Law School Admissions / Re: Apply On-Line or by Snail Mail?
« on: March 02, 2005, 02:58:42 PM »
Never pen and paper.  Typewriter and paper... yes.  Word Processor and paper... yes.  Adobe and paper... GREAT!  Never pen and paper.  ;)

Law School Admissions / Re: Apply On-Line or by Snail Mail?
« on: March 02, 2005, 10:38:51 AM »
For me it depends on what type of online application you are taking about.  For instance BYU uses an online that is like LSAC on the Web You can attach your addendums and things and it formats them into PDF... looks great!  But, then there are schools that use ApplyWeb (i.e. Case Western and Western New England) these sites don't let you attach anything (you have to type it in) and everything loses its formatting so all that nice formatting you did to balance your white and dark space on your resume goes down the crapper.

Plus, even LSAC's online app is only done online.  Then they print it out at their warehouse, batch it with other applicants, and send it in bulk to your school.  Most schools give you a copy of their printable app in PDF, I used a copy of Adobe professional to create fill-in forms.  Then, put it in a LARGE manila envelope, paid the extra .45 cents to get delivery confirmation and sent them out myself.  It allowed me to customize my presentation so that my personality showed a bit more in the coloring and format of the forms and text.

Law School Admissions / Re: Public Interest anyone?
« on: February 28, 2005, 11:54:37 PM »

Thank you!!!

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