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Messages - SuicideNixon

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31
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Poll: The Columbia Protest
« on: October 10, 2006, 05:33:38 AM »
Suicide, I think J's pretty much on your side and just wants to tease out your argument a bit.  Don't get too frustrated.

Meanwhile, I think your response to this is a bit hyperbolic. These are not vigilantes.  They interrupted a speech.  Appropriate, inappropriate, I just don't see why this has your knickers all bunched.

it doesn't, it's just 533 AM.

32
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Poll: The Columbia Protest
« on: October 10, 2006, 05:25:44 AM »
Define "punish".


in the context of this particular sub-discussion, it means depriving people of their rights to free expression. This is seperate to what I said before about how I recognize what the columbia students did was NOT illegal. This is my reply to the line of argument that goes something like "These people are Nazis. You can't have a reasoned discussion with Nazis. Therefore Nazis should not be allowed to speak and they should be shouted down whereever and whenever possible"


But you admit that this is not "punish" in the legal sense, right?


it's extra-legal punishment. I don't think people who engage in that kind of behavior are very good citizens

What's a "good citizen"?


what's the point of this question? demanding endless defintions is not a substitute for a moral argument for this kind of behavior, or even an explanation as to how any kind of legal system can possibly work when people are constantly taking matters into their own hands

33
No chance man.  You should be begging the TTT to read your app.  I'd recommend including a blank check.

Now really, of course you have a great shot at t14, that is unless they detect a desparate need for ego stroking...

people with high numbers need advice too

34
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Poll: The Columbia Protest
« on: October 10, 2006, 05:01:13 AM »
Define "punish".


in the context of this particular sub-discussion, it means depriving people of their rights to free expression. This is seperate to what I said before about how I recognize what the columbia students did was NOT illegal. This is my reply to the line of argument that goes something like "These people are Nazis. You can't have a reasoned discussion with Nazis. Therefore Nazis should not be allowed to speak and they should be shouted down whereever and whenever possible"


But you admit that this is not "punish" in the legal sense, right?


it's extra-legal punishment. I don't think people who engage in that kind of behavior are very good citizens

35
Hey MindTheGap,

I thought you said the Admissions Office would be willing to provide hosts for students who want to visit the school.  I asked them if they'd find someone to host me next Monday but no dice.  :(  Anyone know any Chicago students who would be willing to host a 22 year old female 0L?  Thanks. 


Hrm... maybe it is just because it is so early in the year. In a few weeks we'll have the "sign up if you're willing to help out the admissions office" meeting, so maybe they don't start doing student hosts until after that.

The only other suggestion I would have for you is to contact BLSA.

Since you said on that thread that Moni Li started that she'd prob. find someone on LSD willing to host her, I'll take your advice and beg here... anyone want to host me?  *angel face*

I don't think I said that. Not many Chicago people read LSD. We are mostly an XO school.
how many of your classmates read xoxo?

36
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Poll: The Columbia Protest
« on: October 10, 2006, 04:56:54 AM »
Define "punish".


in the context of this particular sub-discussion, it means depriving people of their rights to free expression. This is seperate to what I said before about how I recognize what the columbia students did was NOT illegal. This is my reply to the line of argument that goes something like "These people are Nazis. You can't have a reasoned discussion with Nazis. Therefore Nazis should not be allowed to speak and they should be shouted down whereever and whenever possible"

37
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Poll: The Columbia Protest
« on: October 10, 2006, 04:35:58 AM »
pretty sure the founders and 109 congresses after them have considered the question of paramilitary groups. why do you assume they havent? or do you just think that you are wiser than they?

Appeals to the omniscience of the founders are really weak, dude.

I question the practicality of a system where people feel free to punish others themselves whenever they think the government should have. I was trying to make you see that. You might have an argument for private action if the government couldn't have acted--but it could have, and declined to do so.

38
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Poll: The Columbia Protest
« on: October 09, 2006, 10:55:54 PM »
okay, minutemen threat to society.  got it.  can you explain why you prefer private action against them?

The real threat is the carte blanche they have from law enforcement agents.  I'm pretty wary of private action, especially as it's easily misconstrued as legitimization by those the action targeted.  Then again there is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop.  Whether or not this incident warranted such a response is not something I'm interested in defending, but I sure love bringing up that quote.

so, system doesn't work and therefore private action to ensure right outcome.  got it.

myself personally, i care more about the system working than there being a right outcome.  i'm not convinced that there is one.

look at that, a religious man who's also a nihilist.  strange combo.

 I agree 100%

39
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Poll: The Columbia Protest
« on: October 09, 2006, 10:53:22 PM »
Unless you can give some evidence that these people pose a threat to democracy greater than the Confederacy, I don't think we should start suspending rights or even our manners.

Listing a bunch of constitutionally protected freedoms that they happen to exercise--bearing arms, forming a militia, right to assemble, speech--doesn't make them a giant threat to the US that you're claiming

So Al Qaeda should be able to arm themselves, train themselves, exercise all of these freedoms and we can't do anything about it in the name of reasonable discourse.  In fact, they should be able to recruit in public.  Just don't jaywalk.  Got it.  There are some groups that are a threat to civil society.  The minutemen are one, not due to their beliefs but due to their structure.  I don't care if they're Nazis or Glassblowers.

okay, minutemen threat to society.  got it.  can you explain why you prefer private action against them?

Can you make the state act against them?

pretty sure the founders and 109 congresses after them have considered the question of paramilitary groups. why do you assume they havent? or do you just think that you are wiser than they?

40
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Poll: The Columbia Protest
« on: October 09, 2006, 10:33:18 PM »
If you are going to oppose the "conservatives" by ignoring free speech and the principles of reasonable discourse then I'd say you are a radical, almost by self-definition. Thank goodness there arent many of these people in America, as you correctly point out

You've missed my original point (see page 1).  There cannot be reasonable discourse with armed brownshirts.  If they had shouted down Pat Robertson, I'd be upset.  If Pat Robertson raised a private army and decided to take matters into his own hands with complicity of law-enforcement agents, then he's fair game.  I've never commented on whether this action was effective, but it certainly was not an attempt to shut down "reasonable discourse" but rather to ensure that we can continue to have it without fear that the ability to do so will be compromised by paramilitary organizations that operate beyond the law.

I'd rather not abandon reasonable discourse anytime someone can compare some people to Nazis. As far as I can tell, that's all you're doing--calling them Nazis. Unless you can give some evidence that these people pose a threat to democracy greater than the Confederacy, I don't think we should start suspending rights or even our manners.

Listing a bunch of constitutionally protected freedoms that they happen to exercise--bearing arms, forming a militia, right to assemble, speech--doesn't make them a giant threat to the US that you're claiming

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