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Messages - jessesamuel

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Affirmative action study met with controversy

(U-WIRE) BERKELEY, Calif. - A recent study that found affirmative action hurts black students' performance in law school has stirred up controversy among faculty and students at law schools across the nation.

The report, published in the Stanford Law Review in December, revealed that many black students are unable to perform well at top-ranking law schools because they were admitted because of racial preference.

"Student expectations can backfire when they are too high," said Richard Sander, a University of California at Los Angeles professor who wrote the study. "Students who were in by affirmative action were not prepared for exams - law professors move at a faster pace at the elite schools."

Sander's report reveals that the average black student's LSAT score was 130 to 170 points below the average score of a white student's. According to his report, 52 percent of black law students have grades in the lowest 10th percentile after finishing their first year, while 8 percent rank in the top half.

But critics of the study slam Sander and his findings for leaving out other factors that could explain why black law students are performing below par.

University of California-Berkeley law professor Goodwin Liu, who published a rebuttal to Sander's report in the California Bar Journal this month, said there is no direct correlation in the gap between law school entrance eligibility and law school grades.

"Entering credentials is not attributable to affirmative action," Liu said. "Blacks would still be at the bottom and not the top even if there is no affirmative action. The study is missing an important statistical step that has nothing to do with affirmative action."

Sander said his findings show black students would get better GPAs if they applied to less prestigious schools. Employers are now hiring more black lawyers, regardless of where they went to school, he said

General Off-Topic Board / Re: What's everybody listening to?
« on: February 22, 2005, 02:39:17 AM »
what same old crap are you listening to?

here's what has been keeping me entertained:

loveless by my bloody valentine
smell the magic by L7

50 first dates soundtrack

cocteau twins


you are the quarry by morrissey

the essential leonard cohen

Gary Numan/Tubeway Army

the Pixies

Rilo Kiley

I applied to the Program in Public Interst Law and Policy at UCLA, and I've heard that it's relatively easier to get in that way. Personally, I thought the UCLA application required the most effort. Anyway, has anyone who applied to the public interest program heard back? Does anyone know how much of a break PI applicants get?

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: 2005
« on: February 19, 2005, 07:28:39 PM »
Law Specialties: Clinical Training
New! Ranked in 2004*

1.    Georgetown University (DC)
2.    American University (Washington College of Law) (DC)
3.    New York University
4.    Washington University in St. Louis
5.    Northwestern University (IL)
6.    University of Michigan–Ann Arbor
7.    University of New Mexico
     Yale University (CT)
9.    CUNY–Queens College
10.    University of Maryland
11.    University of Chicago
12.    Columbia University (NY)
     William Mitchell College of Law (MN)
14.    Catholic University of America (DC)
15.    Fordham University (NY)
     University of Wisconsin–Madison
17.    George Washington University (DC)
     Harvard University (MA)
     Rutgers State University–Newark (NJ)
     University of Nevada–Las Vegas (William S. Boyd)
21.    Northeastern University (MA)
     University of California–Los Angeles
23.    University of Baltimore
     University of California–Berkeley
     University of Tennessee–Knoxville
     Vermont Law School
27.    Brooklyn Law School (NY)
     Cardozo-Yeshiva University (NY)
     Pace University (NY)
     Tulane University (LA)

Employment Location
Graduates employed in-state: 73%
Graduates employed in foreign countries: 1%
Number of states where graduates are employed: 19

New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT): 3%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA): 4%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI): 81%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD): 1%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV): 6%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN): 0%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX): 1%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY): 1%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA): 3%
Unknown: 0%

   Law firms: 61%
   Business/industry (legal): 0%
   Business/industry (nonlegal): 12%
   Government: 13%
   Public interest: 4%
   Judicial clerkship: 7%
   Academia: 4%
   Unknown: 0%
   LAW Employment by Occupation

   Law firms: 61%
   Business/industry (legal): 0%
   Business/industry (nonlegal): 12%
   Government: 13%
   Public interest: 4%
   Judicial clerkship: 7%
   Academia: 4%

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: In at Loyola. grrr
« on: February 18, 2005, 12:50:02 PM »
Hey, guys. I agree about having numbers at the margins for the best schools. I'd say LSAT range 160-165 is the most frustrating. But maybe I'm being insensitive to people below the 50th percentile. Anyway, avg. beginning salary for Loyola is $75,000. If you're looking to work at a firm, maybe consider Tulane, where the average is $110,000. Their public interest salary average is slightly higher, too.

By the way, anner, your LSN account is one of the ones I routinely check to see how someone with similar numbers is faring.

Ohio State is definitely national according to USNWR. All the schools I'm applying to are national, except UGA and Loyola (CA). I think it has to do with where their graduates work. If 90% of the students at UGA end up in Georgia (actually it's 79%), it's regional. There may be other factors, too.

Law School Admissions / Re: Should I apply to more schools?
« on: February 18, 2005, 01:38:37 AM »
You definitely need some safeties. Even Wash U isn't as sure as it would normally be for someone with your numbers. Word has it they're being snobby this cycle. Fordham is hard to get into for its rank. I can recommend some schools, but this is really a shot in the dark since I don't know what you're looking for.

1 - Wisconsin

2 - UC Davis

3 - Wake Forest

4 - Ohio State

5 - Tulane

Good luck with all your applications.

well. i've noticed that when the schools admit people based on two factors, all else being equal. the most important factor is the applicant's qualifications. that means lsat, gpa, urm, whatever. the other factor is when the applicant submits materials. the earlier, the better. that's why the people with the best numbers/other qualifications get in first. they're auto-admits, and eventually the committees work their way down until they get to rejections. in general. that's why i've been admitted to my safeties first, even though i applied to them last. and that's also why i haven't given up hope of being admitted at uva or georgetown or minnesota. they just might make it down to me.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: fafsa wont let me make corrections :-(
« on: February 17, 2005, 11:54:50 AM »
sounds to me like they are still processing your last correction. they're still processing my first correction, too. if i don't hear anything in a day or two more i'm going to have to figure something out.

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