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Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 15, 2015, 01:07:54 PM »
Fine Firefighters Academy Graduates can't find jobs quote, "There arenít too many careers out there that are quite as hard to break into as firefighting, and so I pose the question: How bad do you want it, and is it worth it? Letís consider."

Well there is the first sentence talking about how difficult it is to be a firefighter, but go for it if you want to do it.

Law school is the same way.

Also, in response to why stats are so helpful I posted a "stat" that says lawyers make $113,000 a year.

That stat is obviously flawed and you could poke a million holes into it, just as you could poke holes in all the stats offered regarding employment.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 14, 2015, 09:08:31 AM »
Fine Firefighters Academy Graduates can't find jobs quote, "There arenít too many careers out there that are quite as hard to break into as firefighting, and so I pose the question: How bad do you want it, and is it worth it? Letís consider."

Police Academy graduates can't find jobs,

Then lets look at statistics from the U.S Labor Department regarding lawyers Median Pay is $113,000. Job rate expected to grow 10%. Well the magic of "stats' I guess everything is ok.

The point I try to make routinely is that law school is not much better or worse than anything else out there.  Finding your first job sucks in any field. Law school is more expensive than many other professions, but med school is far more expensive and takes far longer than law school does.

Again, if there is some easy to get, high paying, fulfilling when you want it to be, but doesn't interfere with your life then please let me know. I am literally begging to know, but unfortunately I don't think  such a position exists.

The simple fact with any form of education is that it is a long-term investment. I had plenty of friends that did not go to college and make between 40-60k out of high school at some loan department at a bank, insurance I don't any number of random jobs and it was amazing. Making 40k at 19 when you live with your parents you can buy a car it's amazing at that age.

While I was in college paying to go to school and accruing debt that sucked. When I finally did graduate my friends were making more than me, because they had been working five years. However, eventually they were limited in their careers, because they didn't have a college degree. The ability for growth stopped.

Law school is the same. I had many friends that did not attend law school and stuck with their jobs after graduating working as mid-level managers at various companies and making 70-80k. That's fine and paying off their UG loans. I went to law school and accrued more debt and did not work for three years.

Upon graduating from law school I make about what they made out of college. However, get 4-5 years of experience as a lawyer then your ceiling increases.

This is the same in every profession everywhere. Education generally pays off in the long run, but it takes a long time and at that end of the day I have spent 7 years in school. That means 7 years of non-full time employment and debt has accrued. My friends from HS that went straight into the work force probably have more money than I do. However, when they are 40-45 and have no education finding new work will be difficult.

What is the right answer? I don't know again, if that job I described above earlier exists great, but it doesn't. Therefore, if your going to pursue an education be sure it is something you want to do.

Those firefighters and police academy graduates if they wanted to be firefighters or cops then they are on their way. Eventually, they will find full-time employment, but it will be a bi**h. If after all that struggle and time it ends up they never wanted to be a cop or firefighter then it was a waste of time and they will be disappointed and bit** on internet boards about how unfair everything is.

Many people go into law school not knowing what to expect and if you spend three years of your life and between $100-200k on an education to do something you don't really want to do. Well then your are going to be upset and bi**h about the system.

Again, this is why I 100% agree with Loki's early suggestion of 0L's watching open court seeing what it is really like. It is not quite as dramatic as Tom Cruise in a Few Good Men. Work in a law office and see what it is all about. Even study for the LSAT and take it. If you hate the LSAT then your going to hate law school. It is a mini-version of having to learn minor nuances under time pressure.

If you hate the LSAT, reading, writing, etc but somehow think being a lawyer will allow to travel the world and litigate only interesting cases, and never have to write briefs, or research, etc then your going to be disappointed.

Just be realistic and use common sense. Again, just because the U.S. Labor Department lists a stat of $113,000 median salary does not mean everyone that graduates from law school makes $113,000 at graduation. You can literally manipulate a stat to say whatever you want.

Therefore, what you should do is for example if your considering going to Golden Gate Law and work to work in San Francisco, reach out to Golden Gate Law Grads in San Francisco and ask them about their experience. Talk to 15-20 and I am sure there will be some really cool people that are happy with their choice, some nutjobs that are unhappy, and some people that are fine.

Then at the end of the day you have to ask yourself are you really willing to go through all of it. At that point it will be on you to be realistic, if you think well I am going to make $200,000k at graduation even though nobody I talked to did, because I am special and will be valedictorian or transfer to Stanford for 2L, because clearly I will be in the top 1% will then that is your choice, but that person is unlikely to have it play out as it does in their head.

So is law school the perfect golden ticket? No.

Does law school allow you to sit for the bar exam and provide you a professional license? Yes.

Are their jobs for lawyers out there? Yes.

Are legal jobs easy to get? No.

Is there some easy to get, high paying, fulfilling job that never gets in the way of your life or causes undue stress? No.

So bottom line go to law school if you want to be a lawyer, but have realistic expectations.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 11, 2015, 09:01:49 AM »
Well so what do you tell college graduates that can't find a job?

Is college a bad investment as well? There are more college graduates than entry level jobs for college degrees so should nobody attend college, is a bachelor's degree a bad idea? . A bunch of college graduates can't find job, because they don't have experience.

While we are at it why graduate high school? 29.5% of HS graduates can't find jobs. Why attend high school?

No form of education guarantees you a job and obviously the less prestigious the school the less doors you have open.
Furthermore, finding a job particularly your first job is hard. It is a universal truth that doesn't apply only to law school.

So what do you tell a millennial with a college degree that can't find a job?  Is a four year degree, which is also expensive a bad idea?

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 10, 2015, 05:08:21 PM »
Precisely with the more prestigious the position the more it will be applicable.

Is a Medical Degree of more value than a Law Degree? Yes.

Is a Medical Degree longer and more expensive than law school? Yes.

McDonald's is open to anyone that is 16 and frankly most people will get hired that apply it is not an ideal job.

If you want to go a step higher then working retail not in the food industry is probably one bump up i.e. Home Depot, Toys R Us, Target. Those places might be a little harder for someone with no experience. However, no education or experience is technically necessary.

One step higher than that an office job as a receptionist or admin somewhere.  Usually they will want you to have some office experience, which is hard to get without any education whatsoever. When I was 19 and in college I was tired of working at a Hardware Store and wanted an office job. All the jobs required that you need office experience though, but I finally got a job in a physical therapy office, because of my basketball background. However, I was frustrated, because as a college-student I could not get an office job, because I had no work experience in an office.  However, it wasn't that competitive I found work.

Move a step higher a full-time office job with benefits etc or maybe a sales job. You might need a Bachelor's Degree, but again they will want you to have sales experience and a bachelor's degree; or full-time office experience and a bachelor's degree. Many people with Bachelor's are not immediately offered a job either and if they no work experience it is a ** to get that first job. As there are millions of people with B.A's or B.S's that are looking for their first job or a new job. However, there are millions of jobs open for that skill level.

One step higher a graduate degree job, which is only to open to people with specific degrees Therapist next. A lot of people pursue their MFT based on their psychology degree. Once they get the MFT they have to put in tons of hours and work low paying jobs to get Therapy experience before they can be a therapist on their own.

An MFT is cheaper and less time than a J.D., but less lucrative and more competitive.

Next up lets go with Nursing this is a job that requires Certification and experience. Many of my friends became nurses and graduated nursing school, but many of the jobs required experience as a nurse. The Catch 22, discussed above. However, they all eventually found jobs, but yea my roommate during law school was in nursing school. Everyone thought since I was in law school I got handed a job at graduation, I assumed nurses got handed jobs after nursing school. We both complained how annoying it was that places wouldn't hire you without experience, because how could you get experience?

I could do this exercise forever and yea an MD is the most guaranteed path to success. If you get into Med School, Graduate Med School, get through Residency and then want to practice medicine your set. I don't think any other profession has as a clear of a track, but it is about a 10 year process that is highly competitive.

Law is a tough path not anyone can get in and it is 3 years and arguable the Bar Exam is the most difficult test any profession has to take. It is competitive, but for all intents and purposes when doing the grad school analysis law school isn't as bad as a lot of other professions.

It is far from perfect and by no means a guarantee, but again neither is anything else.

Studying for the LSAT / Re: .
« on: December 10, 2015, 02:40:11 PM »

In a way that is even true about law school or any form of education really.

A great teacher is awesome and memorable. I know from elementary school all the way through law school I had some great teachers and some s**t ones.

The great ones help you succeed regardless of the company, school, etc they teach at.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 10, 2015, 12:48:02 PM »
Yea that is pretty much the Catch 22 of any job. They want you to have experience, but you can't get experience until you are hired.

Ask anyone in any profession how easy it was to get their first job. Hell even McDonald's would prefer you to have experience as a cashier or in the food service.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 10, 2015, 12:22:39 PM »
Again, I agree with you, but any job is competitive anywhere.

McDonalds puts applications on file and doesn't hire everyone.

The rest I agree with yea if you think your a special little snowflake your not. Frankly, if that is how you view things whether it is law, medicine, McDonald's etc your not going to get a job.

Looking for a job sucks, it always has and always well. It is a universal truth and the more prestigious and desirable the job the more competitive it becomes. Law jobs are more desirable and prestigious than most other jobs so it is competitive and even a Yale Grad can apply to 10 jobs and will likely get rejected 90% of the time.

A GGU grad will probably get rejected 99% of the time, but in reality if you look long and hard enough you can get a job. What is a long and hard search is subjective and frankly most people considering law school are not realistic.

Frankly everyone in my class that I know is employed, but it took a year for some people to find legal employment. It was not easy, but law does build on itself now all of us are a few years out with experience and getting jobs is much easier, but is the typical 0L ready to be $260k in debt and be willing to look for a job for a year? Then that first job not pay that well either?

If that same person sticks with it for 5 years then some real doors will open, but that is a long freaking journey and many people are not up to it.

Just as many people in this world have 6 pack abs it can be done, everybody CAN do it. However, most people don't.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 10, 2015, 11:27:22 AM »
There are jobs for entry level lawyers

You will have to compete for these positions and you will be rejected numerous times before you get a job. All while having debt hanging over your head.

It is a burden, but nothing worth doing is easy. Law school can be and is a terrible choice for many people, Law school can be and is a great choice for others.

There are plenty of grads doing well from every ABA Law School and plenty not doing well. Again, if you want to be an attorney there are risks and that is why you should be sure you want to do it.

A J.D. is not a guarantee of success nor a guarantee of failure. It is a degree and what you do with it has a lot more to do with the individual, but people do tend to overthink their abilities, work ethic, etc so be realistic in your decision making.

Just as every 1L is certain they will be in the top 10% everyone accepted as a OL therefore thinks they will be in the top 10% of the class and put in all the hours to network, apply to hundreds of jobs, and straight hustle, but humans tend to give themselves more credit.

A perfect example is all the home gym equipment out there. Everyone knows to exercise and eat right it is not difficult, but actually doing it is the issue.

In all honesty, if you attend X school and graduate top of the class, law review, mock trial, etc you can get a job. To do that you will need to spend countless hours of studying, work, networking and still no guarantee of anything working out.

Is law school a risk? Yes.

Are people particularly law students unrealistic with their expectations? Yes.

Can law school work? Of course.

You can use stats as well if you attend GGU there is a 50% chance you will be in the bottom half of the class.  This will mean you are probably at risk for passing the bar 1st time.

Furthermore, unless you hustle and do mock trial, journals, get internships etc a graduate in the middle of the pack from GGU with no activities and no internship experience will not get you very far and that is assuming you pass the bar.

A middle of the pack GGU student that gets internships, mock trial, journals etc can probably do fine, but will they actually do the work necessary to obtain those placements? That is up to them.

Education is what you make out of it, but you need to be realistic about what you are really going to do. Even if you do everything right you also need to be realistic about that outcome.

Those are the issues that people face and I think people are whinier than they have ever been about how unfair etc things are and if your a whiner don't go to law school.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 09, 2015, 11:02:43 AM »
Yea that is basically my point there are certainly a hell of a lot worse jobs than being a lawyer and even Doc Review is better than factory or warehouse work, which I have done as well.

It all just comes down to a bit of common sense. If you get a J.D. and pass the bar you can get a job practicing law, but your first job will not be ideal. However, that is the same in any profession.

At the very least you are building towards something with a J.D. if your a factory worker for example you go until your body craps out.

Law school is great for the right person, but I think to many people think it is a golden ticket. Or if X dream doesnt' work out then there is always law school, but law school SHOULD NOT be a backup plan. It should be something you really want to do.

I think law might be one of the few professions were people a large amount of people enroll to give up three years of their life and $100,000 of money to do something they don't want to do.

You don't go to a Police Academy and here the Trainees say oh yea I am just doing this to open my options, what I really want to do is act?

Or a Fire Academy or Accounting school etc.

The fact that many people make a huge commitment to do something they don't want to do is a recipe for disappointment, so before anyone enrolls be sure you know what you are getting into.

The legal profession is pretty cool in my opinion and I enjoy doing it, but just like everything else it has its pitfalls.

Studying for the LSAT / Re: .
« on: December 08, 2015, 10:25:09 AM »
I think there about 50 services out there.

I know a lot of people use Kaplan now.

However, don't put to much faith in a LSAT program, it can't hurt you, but the main thing is showing up to take the test. I don't know how many people put it off for years and in this day and age the vast majority if not all schools only take your highest score.

Therefore, you should study for the LSAT for a few months and take it. If it isn't the score you want you can retake, but odds are once you have a score you will just apply to law school and take the first step towards your legal career.

Good luck.

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