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Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 10, 2015, 01:48:02 PM »
Yea that is pretty much the Catch 22 of any job. They want you to have experience, but you can't get experience until you are hired.

Ask anyone in any profession how easy it was to get their first job. Hell even McDonald's would prefer you to have experience as a cashier or in the food service.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 10, 2015, 01:22:39 PM »
Again, I agree with you, but any job is competitive anywhere.

McDonalds puts applications on file and doesn't hire everyone.

The rest I agree with yea if you think your a special little snowflake your not. Frankly, if that is how you view things whether it is law, medicine, McDonald's etc your not going to get a job.

Looking for a job sucks, it always has and always well. It is a universal truth and the more prestigious and desirable the job the more competitive it becomes. Law jobs are more desirable and prestigious than most other jobs so it is competitive and even a Yale Grad can apply to 10 jobs and will likely get rejected 90% of the time.

A GGU grad will probably get rejected 99% of the time, but in reality if you look long and hard enough you can get a job. What is a long and hard search is subjective and frankly most people considering law school are not realistic.

Frankly everyone in my class that I know is employed, but it took a year for some people to find legal employment. It was not easy, but law does build on itself now all of us are a few years out with experience and getting jobs is much easier, but is the typical 0L ready to be $260k in debt and be willing to look for a job for a year? Then that first job not pay that well either?

If that same person sticks with it for 5 years then some real doors will open, but that is a long freaking journey and many people are not up to it.

Just as many people in this world have 6 pack abs it can be done, everybody CAN do it. However, most people don't.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 10, 2015, 12:27:22 PM »
There are jobs for entry level lawyers

You will have to compete for these positions and you will be rejected numerous times before you get a job. All while having debt hanging over your head.

It is a burden, but nothing worth doing is easy. Law school can be and is a terrible choice for many people, Law school can be and is a great choice for others.

There are plenty of grads doing well from every ABA Law School and plenty not doing well. Again, if you want to be an attorney there are risks and that is why you should be sure you want to do it.

A J.D. is not a guarantee of success nor a guarantee of failure. It is a degree and what you do with it has a lot more to do with the individual, but people do tend to overthink their abilities, work ethic, etc so be realistic in your decision making.

Just as every 1L is certain they will be in the top 10% everyone accepted as a OL therefore thinks they will be in the top 10% of the class and put in all the hours to network, apply to hundreds of jobs, and straight hustle, but humans tend to give themselves more credit.

A perfect example is all the home gym equipment out there. Everyone knows to exercise and eat right it is not difficult, but actually doing it is the issue.

In all honesty, if you attend X school and graduate top of the class, law review, mock trial, etc you can get a job. To do that you will need to spend countless hours of studying, work, networking and still no guarantee of anything working out.

Is law school a risk? Yes.

Are people particularly law students unrealistic with their expectations? Yes.

Can law school work? Of course.

You can use stats as well if you attend GGU there is a 50% chance you will be in the bottom half of the class.  This will mean you are probably at risk for passing the bar 1st time.

Furthermore, unless you hustle and do mock trial, journals, get internships etc a graduate in the middle of the pack from GGU with no activities and no internship experience will not get you very far and that is assuming you pass the bar.

A middle of the pack GGU student that gets internships, mock trial, journals etc can probably do fine, but will they actually do the work necessary to obtain those placements? That is up to them.

Education is what you make out of it, but you need to be realistic about what you are really going to do. Even if you do everything right you also need to be realistic about that outcome.

Those are the issues that people face and I think people are whinier than they have ever been about how unfair etc things are and if your a whiner don't go to law school.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 09, 2015, 12:02:43 PM »
Yea that is basically my point there are certainly a hell of a lot worse jobs than being a lawyer and even Doc Review is better than factory or warehouse work, which I have done as well.

It all just comes down to a bit of common sense. If you get a J.D. and pass the bar you can get a job practicing law, but your first job will not be ideal. However, that is the same in any profession.

At the very least you are building towards something with a J.D. if your a factory worker for example you go until your body craps out.

Law school is great for the right person, but I think to many people think it is a golden ticket. Or if X dream doesnt' work out then there is always law school, but law school SHOULD NOT be a backup plan. It should be something you really want to do.

I think law might be one of the few professions were people a large amount of people enroll to give up three years of their life and $100,000 of money to do something they don't want to do.

You don't go to a Police Academy and here the Trainees say oh yea I am just doing this to open my options, what I really want to do is act?

Or a Fire Academy or Accounting school etc.

The fact that many people make a huge commitment to do something they don't want to do is a recipe for disappointment, so before anyone enrolls be sure you know what you are getting into.

The legal profession is pretty cool in my opinion and I enjoy doing it, but just like everything else it has its pitfalls.

Studying for the LSAT / Re: Post by Test Prep Company Shill
« on: December 08, 2015, 11:25:09 AM »
I think there about 50 services out there.

I know a lot of people use Kaplan now.

However, don't put to much faith in a LSAT program, it can't hurt you, but the main thing is showing up to take the test. I don't know how many people put it off for years and in this day and age the vast majority if not all schools only take your highest score.

Therefore, you should study for the LSAT for a few months and take it. If it isn't the score you want you can retake, but odds are once you have a score you will just apply to law school and take the first step towards your legal career.

Good luck.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 07, 2015, 09:58:39 AM »
Well again Loki I agree with you particularly your point about going to open court before enrolling in law school and seeing what it is actually like.

Often the life of a lawyer is hurrying up to wait around for three hours so the judge can sign an order. It is very rarely as interesting as the movies again like all professions. I worked closely with many cops and I got to go on SWAT raids once in a blue moon, which was exciting, but for the most part it is sitting around writing a report about why X random crackhead broke a window and how there are no leads, etc, while some neighbor complains about how the cops should do something etc. 

The life of a cop is not quite like it is in the movies nor is it like that as a lawyer, doctor, accountant etc.

As for choosing between Medical School and Law School, it is not that black and white a choice.  I personally have a friend that dropped out of Med School, because she hated it and loves law school. Does Med School if you go through all the steps have a more certain path? Yes.

However, I personally could not be a doctor the thought of having to perform surgery or literally being responsible for someone's death for misdiagnosis is not something I  could handle. I have many doctor friends that hate writing and arguing and could not be a lawyer and I could not be a doctor. I have a friend who is an expert carpenter and can build houses from scratch I am blown up away by it, but he is terrified to write a letter.  He builds stuff for me and I do legal work for him, because I can't barely put together an Ikea Desk. Each person has their own strengths and attributes, so it is not just go to Med School.

Again, if a OL doesn't have the common sense to realize that law school or any form of school is not a golden ticket then no matter what they do, it will probably end in disappointment. If someone wants to be a PD and expects to be on a high profile murder trial that will have highly favorable facts on their side, which they will win and have turned into a movie 6 months out of law school. Well that is not going to happen.

As you said a PD will be assigned to the misdemeanor unit handling way more cases than can handle, which will likely involve drunk guys resisting arrest, dui's, illegal dumping, domestic violence issues and it will be a far cry from a high profile murder case. If you pay your dues for several years then you might move up to felonies and after a few more years work your way up, but this will probably take 10 years and very few people stick to one job for 10 years anymore. Not to mention 10 years in a PD office having to deal with some pretty f'ed up cases and being completely overworked and underpaid is not a great situation, but if your passionate about criminal defense it can be great.

I don't tell anyone yea you get a law degree and your dream job is handed to you. Med School is not that easy of a path either and plenty of people regret it, see these numerous accounts from various doctors. I could find a 1,000 similar articles from lawyers, doctors, accountants, firemen, cops, nurses, MBA's, etc.

I could find a million more accounts with these same dissatisfaction in every profession and my overall point for anyone, because it is all the same is be sure you know what you are getting into before pursuing an education in that field. None of them will be perfect, they will have their pros and cons.

Nothing is as glamorous as it appears on T.V. or in the movies. Every job has its headaches. I personally love being a lawyer, but yea there are things that suck about it to.

I loved playing basketball, but yea there were things that sucked about that to.

Again, if there is some easy to get, high paying, challenging and fulfilling when I want it to be, but lets me take time whenever I want as well then please let all of us know about it.

Unfortunately, I don't think it does.

Is law school absurdly expensive? Yes. (Therefore reduce costs if your planning on attending.)

Do many 0L's go into law school with completely unrealistic expectations? Yes.

If you go into anything with unrealistic expectations is it disappointing? Yes.

To any OL I recommend the following. Work in a law office before enrolling, watch court, talk to lawyers, find ways to reduce costs, and realize that simply passing the bar will not result in people handing you a job. Be ready to fight for one just like everyone else.

 Frankly for any profession do a little more than watch T.V. on the subject before making a commitment. If you want to be a cop go on multiple ride-along see what it is really like, talk to cops, join the Volunteer Police while going to school.


Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 04, 2015, 03:59:44 PM »
I just read your post above, we must have simultaneously posted and I could not agree with you more it is very difficult if not impossible to predict how you will do in law school.

 Clearly if you excel in law school your odds of doing well as a lawyer are increased and vice versa the other way. How well you know if you well do well in law school? You don't.

That is the simple question law school is a huge risk/investment whatever you want to call it. It could go great and you can land your dream job out of law school it does happen. You could also fail out after 1L and be out $40,000 in debt and a year of lost income, not to mention it would be embarrassing to fail out.

Each form of school is a risk even Med School plenty of people fail out of that or don't make it through residency etc. There are plenty of people that regret every enrolling in Med School.

What it all comes down to do is common sense and a brief reality check. Law school is not a golden ticket, but there are no other golden tickets either.

If you want to be a lawyer and know what your getting into law school can be a great choice. However, if you really want to be a lawyer you may fail out 1L, you may never pass the bar, you may pass the bar and not ever work as a lawyer. Those are all options, but there is one way and one way only to be a lawyer and that is by going to law school.

Would I recommend law school to everyone? No.

Can it be a great choice for some people? Yes.

How will it work out for random 0L reading this post? Nobody can know.

Law school can be a great choice or a disastrous choice and again apply common sense.

Will a person with a 4.0 and 180 LSAT that graduates from Harvard have more options than another person with a 3.1 and a 155 LSAT that graduates from USF?

Yea I would bet on the Harvard Grad to make more money, have more job opportunities, and more or less have a better legal career.

Just as the Number #1 draft pick in the NBA Draft will have more options than the 49th pick.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 04, 2015, 10:09:32 AM »
Again, you are correct your law review buddies probably did well. I was also at the top of my class and most of my friends took school seriously and worked really hard to succeed.

There were some characters to say the least at my school as I am sure there are at every school and I wouldn't be shocked if they are working at some coffee shop complaining about how unfair everything is.

To any OL if your in the bottom 10% of your law school class at Golden Gate for example the job market is going to be really tough.

If your in the top 10% of your class at any school your first job is going to be easier.

That is my overall point I suppose and why I don't like stats, because it negates common sense.

Are there slackers at every law school out there that couldn't hold down a job at Starbucks. Probably, but if you are a hard-working person that takes law school seriously and truly works at it an ABA school will do fine.

That is my main point it really is up to the individual whether they will succeed or not. However, I think the problem is a lack of self-awareness for many people, who think hey I got a 2.9 GPA and a 151 LSAT, but being a lawyer might be cool. The LSAT is not a good predictor and the test isn't fair, but I will be in the top 10% and transfer to Stanford 2L and then make $200k a year starting. 

That is not uncommon thought process for many 0L's and that is where the problem is.

It all comes to expectations and if someone with a 2.9 and 151 LSAT legitimately was passionate about becoming a Public Defender had worked in a P.D's office during college and loved the work, then Golden Gate or some mediocre law school would work fine.

That person is probably capable of passing the bar and getting a job at a P.D's office somewhere, which is that person's passion as you state. If the law is something X person is a passionate about then law school can be a great choice.

If someone goes to law school expecting a golden ticket and they don't know what else to do, well that is a problem.   

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 03, 2015, 02:10:53 PM »

In an effort to get completely off track from the original topic, which is what online boards are all about I suppose. Here is an example of why stats in any context don't mean a whole lot. Realistically you can have a stat say anything you want.

Here is a recent list of the top 10 best cities to raise a family based on the following stats.

Metro Population: 567,000

Major Industries: Technology, Health care, Education

Gross Metro Product: $18.5 B

Median Household Income: $59,916

Median Home Price: $177,100

Unemployment: 3.5%

Job Growth (2013): 5.3%

Cost of Living: 7.3% below natíl avg

College Attainment: 35.8%

Net Migration (2013): 610

-The cost of living is 7.3 below the national average, but what are the salaries?

Collegiate attainment is 35.8%, but what is the median income of the households that end up enrolling in college. Does every family that makes over $1,000,000 a year send their kid to college, probalby, but what about the families making under $50,000.

More importantly what is college attainment. If you enroll in a Sports & Film nightclass at a Junior College is that "attainment"

You could go on and on and poke holes in any stat, including job placement for law grads.

Frankly, everyone I know that graduated with me 4 years ago is employed. Did I know everyone in my class no, but of the 50-60 people I interacted with during law school every single one passed the bar some took two attempts and found employment.

One guy took 4 times to pass, but he did and got a job.

So the point is don't rely heavily on stats, the rankings, or anything else. Use this magical thing called common sense.

If you graduate law school and don't pass the bar your not going to get a job as an attorney. 100% of students that never passed a bar are not working as attorneys, that is a stat I can get behind.

Additionally, just because you pass the bar and a test of minimal competence to practice law does not mean every firm in the world is going to beg you to work there. Instead you will have to hustle to get a job.

it is the catch 22 everyone faces in every profession. You need education and experience to do X job. However, as a new graduate you don't have experience and therefore you are not qualified to do many jobs, but eventually you will find a job that allows you to get experience. Thereafter, you have experience and problem solved, but it will be an annoying 1-2 year journey to start your career.

I don't know any profession that doesn't have this barrier. You don't do brain surgery the second you graduate from Med School, you don't handle a Murder Trial the second you graduate from Law School, You are not named CEO the second you get your MBA, you are not made the Head of Accounting at Global Tax Firm after getting your CPA license, You are not named head of Psychiatric Care for the State after getting your Ph.D. in Psychology, your are not named Head of Nursing after graduating from Nursing School, your not made Chief of Police the second you graduate from the Police Academy.

On and on it goes.

Starting a career is difficult and the law is no better or worse. In fact personally I think it is a little easier than a lot of careers to get your start, because there are only so many licensed attorneys.

If your competing for X Admin Job literally millions of people are qualified to do that job.

So to get back on track 1L Semester Grades you want to do as well as possible, because that will open as many doors. However, there is a 99% chance that any 0L is not going to graduate in the top 1% of their class or graduate from the top 1% of law schools.

Every firm would surely love to have to the Valedictorian of Harvard work at their firm. Every NBA team would love to have Lebron James, Steph Curry, Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Paul and DeAndre Jordan as their starting 5. so on and on so, but they can't.

There is only one Lebron there is only one Harvard Valedictorian per year.

End of incoherent rant.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: December 02, 2015, 03:13:48 PM »
Again, Loki I agree with you.

To go back to by Basketball example, ending up as a high school basketball coach is not a glamorous job, but if you truly love basketball and that is your passion then that is great.

I went through a similar path in basketball and ended up in some crazy places and gave up more lucrative regular job offers to pursue basketball, because I loved it. However, at some point I decided I did not want to keep living in China going to obscure villages to play basketball getting by and hoping x-shady Chinese basketball owner would pay me after the game, which did not always happen.

However, I have friends that stuck with it and are now assistants at D2 colleges or in a high school and they are extremely happy. However, they are making $45,000 in Nebraska and getting by and hoping that one day they will get a head coaching job or maybe become an assistant in the NBA somewhere. There is no guarantee of it, but they are pursuing their passion. If you really love basketball that is great.

The law is similar and I think we both agree that you shouldn't incur the costs, three years of your life, etc to figure out if law school is for you. Instead, you have to really want to be a lawyer and unless your admitted to Harvard, Yale, etc I strongly encourage a law school applicant to get a Paralegal Certificate first and work in a law office. If after that experience they are still dead-set on going to law school, but Golden Gate at full freight is their only opportunity then I would recommend it.

If some kid out of undergrad just doesn't want to start work or likes watching Law & Order and can only muster a 152 on the LSAT and thinks sure why not go to law school. Then I would give that kid the same advice you are.

To the stats issue. I don't know how else to back it up. Law students graduate in May? Am I wrong? You cannot sit for the California Bar Exam until you graduate from Law School and the exam is in late July.

You then have to sit and wait like a jacka** until the Friday before Thanksgiving to get your bar results.

Then the typical law student swears in at their school ceremony in December.

If that is not the process then I really f'ed up, because I went through the purgatory of waiting for bar-results clerking at some b.s. places making $15 an hour as a "clerk" from August to November.

However, p I had several job offers that were contigent on me passing. I sat around like a complete jackass waiting for the f'ing aholes that grade the bar-exam to give me my results so I could start real attorney work, instead of hustling to make a $100 a week.

However, none of the real jobs wanted me to start if I was going to have to go right back to taking the bar exam. Why would they waste the time, resources and money to implement me into their work environment, which I was not even licensed to do until my results came out?

If there is a way to avoid that situation then I am an idiot, but very few jobs if any were eager to hire someone until results were out. With more than 50% of takers not passing the first time would you? If some kid came into our office right now and seemed great, but could not make court appearances etc and if we did hire them they might have to take 4 months off to study I would not hire them. Instead, I would hire one of the countless people licensed already as would any reasonable business.

Thankfully, I passed and I accepted a job offer, but did not start until mid-January, because after I passed I went on a trip. The last thing on my mind after passing the bar exam, going on a cross-country trip and starting a new job was filling out my employment statistics with my law school.  In fact, I never filled it out so I am likely one of the people listed as "unemployed" according to the statistics.

In all honestly, did you fill out anything after graduating? On top of the countless things I have to do everyday that is not my #1 priority. However, for some reason I spend time on this board, but I like it, however more productive uses of my time could be found, including filling out the stats, but I didn't do it. I personally don't know many of my classmates that did either.

In summary my personal experience is how I dispute the statistics and I don't think anything in my experience is that unusual.

So as usual, I think we agree for the most part.  If a OL is considering law school research everything and take the commitment seriously. Don't half ass a 3 year and $100,000 plus investment.

Furthermore, do not I repeat do not attend Golden Gate, USF, Santa Clara etc if you don't want to be a lawyer. That is one of the biggest issues I saw. I don't how many people at my school said oh yea I am in law school, but I don't really want to be a lawyer. "WTF?" Unless you have time and money to burn then sure enjoy the intellectual challenge it provides.

However, if your an undergrad student already $50,000 in debt that has never worked a day in your life and you scrap by with a 2.9 from Humboldt State and then eek out a 151 on the LSAT and GGU says hey we will take $200,000 of your money. Then I would tell that kid to do some research and work for a little bit to realize how much $200,000 actually is and see if the life of a lawyer is for them.



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