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Distance Education Law Schools / Re: NOVUS LAW SCHOOL?
« on: October 16, 2015, 08:31:40 PM »
Novus is what is and bragging that a Judge didnt' declare your school a diploma mill isn't exactly worth celebrating.

NOVUS shouldn't be bringing it up either. Honestly, both sides would be better served by forgetting it ever happened.

You have Touro a school at the bottom of ABA schools attacking NOVUS a school that has no relevance to them.

NOVUS is an unaccredited school in the Marshall Islands and they are going on a ad-campaign that a Judge did not declare them a "diploma mill"

It is Jerry Springer like and both of them should go sit in a corner and not embarrass themselves any further.

Distance Education Law Schools / Re: NOVUS LAW SCHOOL?
« on: October 16, 2015, 04:52:48 PM »
Yea it was a pointless lawsuit and that is just a pet peeve of mine, when everyone jumps on someone for being sued. The truth is you "can" sue anyone for anything.  It doesn't mean you are going to win or that the person sued did anything wrong, but in my quick google search of the case all these blogs jumped on NOVUS for being sued.

If your lawsuit is pointless a Motion to Dismiss (Demurrer) in California is granted.  If there is some possible issue involved you get to Summary Judgment and then  real trial.

Touro was shot down at the Motion to Dismiss stage. When that occurs a  Judge will usually write a detailed opinon, because no-discovery has been conducted,  but this case was so pointless that the Judge needed only one page to explain it.  -

To reiterate the simple facts Touro sued Novus solely under a Federal Statute 20 U.S.C. 1003.  Civ Pro 101 if you are suing under Federal Law you go to Federal Court, but they went to state court.  (Dumb move #1)

I have no idea why they needed to seek a class-action lawsuit under 20 U.S.C. 1003. It was a dispute between Touro and NOVUS and Touro wanted the State Court to call NOVUS a diploma mill. Why is a class-action necessary for that? (Dumb move #2)

The dumbest move of all is it really is unclear what Touru wanted. I love when Judge's ask that in court, what do you want?  I guess the only possible answer is that Touro wanted a New York Judge to call a Marshall Islands Law School a Diploma Mill? In summary Touro used the court system in an attempt to get a Judge to say someplace they have no jurisdiction over sucks.   The Judge understandably declined to get involved. (Dumb Move #3 by Touro) - (Smart move by Judge) 

I assume the student they dismissed crushed Touro and the lawsuit against NOVUS was some sort of desperate act for Touro to save face.

It is amazing how big a mess people make when they simply don't take accountability.

Touro made a reasonable mistake in admitting the NOVUS Grad. NOVUS seems to be a foreign law school  and I am guessing the LLM student enrolled in Touro to be able to take a bar-exam someone.

So now I will go on a short list of complete assumptions where Touro continued to go wrong, but this like any anonymous interent post could be completely wrong, and I am affirmativel saying I don't know anything about this so take with a heap not a grain of salt.

I assume when Touro found out about this they were unsure if a NOVUS grad could set for the exam. 

I assume this is where the mistake occurred instead of Touro attempting to help their student try and sit for the exam, they dismissed him or her from school.  They then went down this road of pointless litigation to attack people. These resources would have been way better spent on helping the student qualify for the exam, but instead of working with the student to get a favorable result for everyone, Touro was embarrassed and acted childlike by initiating all this litigation for no reason.

-I hope Touro learned the lesson of minding their own business. The day Touro has a 100% bar passage rates, 100% employment and is known worldwide as an amazing institution maybe it can try to police the legal profession. If Harvard wanted to do this ok, they earned it, but this is the equivalent of Jimmy Clausen suing Tim Tebow for not being a real NFL Quarterback. 

Jimmy is barely in the league and Tebow isn't even in it.  Jimmy could be cut any day and would be advised to worry about himself, not what others are doing.

Touro is a newly accredited and far from elite ABA school and it should really focus on providing a quality education for its students that are paying large sums of money to attend. Not attacking an irrelevant law school in the Marshall Islands.

Distance Education Law Schools / Re: NOVUS LAW SCHOOL?
« on: October 16, 2015, 11:15:36 AM »
NOVUS is  what it claims to be an unaccredited law school registered in the Marshall Islands. That doesn't scream credibility and I personally would not attend NOVUS, but this lawsuit actually makes Touro look really bad. This is a law school and essentially they are claiming they could not read the fine print on Novus Law School's website. 

NOVUS is what it always has been and will be before this suit, but Touro just looks stupid for engaging it. They accepted a NOVUS grad into their law school, because their admissions committee did not read the fine print.  Mistake on Touro's part and instead of dealing with that appropriately they forced the student out of the school. The student understandably sued, because they accepted him and his application did not lie, one would assume a law school would check its fact before offering acceptance to someone and somehow Touro's lack of due diligence was the student and or Novus's fault? Touro did not do its job and instead of taking accountability went after an unaccredited law school in the Marshall Islands. To what lengths will it go to avoid saying it screwed p.

Then after that embarrassment Touro sues NOVUS the school they never contacted to verify was an actual foreign law school. Not only that Touro sued a Federal Statute in State Court that doesn't actually ask for anything, and for no apparent reason at Touro requested a class action.  That would just be a fail on a Civil Procedure Exam. Perhaps Touro should work on learning the law itself, before attacking some obscure irrelevant school in the Marshall Islands.

The simple fact is Touro didn't do its job and they are suing NOVUS a school they had no interaction with for no reason.

I guess the lesson is unaccredited schools are unaccredited schools. If the government wants to shut them down or state bars do not want to recognize the schools that is up to those entities, but NOVUS never claims to be an accredited law school. If it did that would be a problem, but it doesn't.

Touro is an ABA school, why is it lowering itself to this pointless litigation? I have no opinion whatsoever about Touro, but they did not handle this matter well.

Distance Education Law Schools / Re: NOVUS LAW SCHOOL?
« on: October 16, 2015, 01:04:53 AM »
Thanks for that link it answered all my questions.

 I reviewed the initial Complaint filed by Touro and was shocked that they filed it.  After reading the Complaint my understanding is that Touro accepted a NOVUS grad into their LLM program, under the impression he was a foreign law studnet. It appears Touro  did no background check on this applicant at all, because they later dismissed him for attending NOVUS.

The dismissed student sued Touro for accepting him and then deciding his "foreign law" school was not enough.

As a result of that lawsuit Touro then filed a Class Action Lawsuit in state court under a Federal Statute. (No Joke f;ing weird though)

With such a bizarre Complaint I really nerded out and looked up the full case in detail from the New York Supreme Court website, which actually maintains PDF's of all filings in the case, which is pretty cool.

NOVUS killed them in their motion to dismiss.

So the facts are that Touro let a NOVUS grad into their LLM program and they believed Touro was a foreign law school. They then tried to dismiss the NOVUS grad they accepted, but he sued them.  Somehow Touro blames NOVUS for their inability to check on an applicant's background. All Touro had to do was google NOVUS and they could have learned what it was.

Touro then files a class action claim in state court under a Federal Statute 20 U.S.C. 1003, which actually contains the words" Diploma Mill" but it is unclear what the remedy under the statute is. I don't know what Touro even sought to accomplish from my reading it of the filed documents Touro wanted a New York State Court to Declare Novus a school in the Marshall Islands a diploma mill under a Federal Statute. What a declaration of a Diploma Mill would even do is unclear, which is why the court dismissed the case for the lack of any justifiable controversy.

The court needed no more than one page to say there is no controversy and dismissed the case.

I have to ask what the hell was Touro thinking? They screwed up by admitting a NOVUS grad and apparently conducting no background check whatsoever on their LLM applicants. It seems like you would sweep your inability to use diligence under the rug, but instead they sued NOVUS for no apparent reason.

Just bizarre really the only relief they sought from the State Court was to declare NOVUS a Diploma Mill under a Federal Statute. WTF? Why would a class action be necessary for that either?

Good for NOVUS and as to Touro if you make a mistake take accountability for it . Don't attack some obscure unaccredited law school, because your taking money from applicants without doing due diligence of your own.

I have no big issue with the rankings at the end of the day they developed a  good for them. I wish I would have thought of it, but I believe students should not consider when choosing what school to attend.

I suppose as LOKI suggests if you want to use it as a guide for schools to apply to then it could be beneficial, but  I think most 0L's give it far more importance than that, which is no fault of U.S. News. They are just giving their opinion and getting paid well to give it.

As a sidenote to LOKI's response I applied to about 30 schools, because I attended an LSAC forum and got more fee waivers than I knew what to do with.  I highly recommend any OL attend an LSAC forums if it is convenient, because they hand out fee waivers if you just stop by their booth.

In summary, if 0L's are using it to determine what schools then there is nothing wrong with that or even if 0L's use it as a tiebreaker, but when OL's make the mistake I did of making the rankings a primary factor in their life altering decision is where issues arise.

As evidenced by my own experience the rankings also change drastically and two of the schools have no completely changed entirely Franklin Pierce Law School is now University of New Hampshire and Texas Wesleyan is now Texas A & M.
Other schools ranks changed by 50 plus spots and the actual ranking system changed entirely as well. It used to only go to 100 now it goes to 150. The ranking system in 2008 when I was applying consisted of Tier 1; Tier 2; Tier 3; and Tier 4 schools. That has no completely changed U.S. News now ranks 150 schools out of 200 and leaves the remaining 50 with a rankings not published distinction.

That all in seven years. I graduated in 2011 and am coming up on only my fourth year as a lawyer and the ranking of my school has changed drastically, as has the system so to any 0L please don't let it be a major factor in your decision.

Solid post and I guess my point is that if a 0L doesn't know that Northwestern is better than Appalachian they probably shouldn't be going to law school.

Northwestern is a well regarded school and any 0L at an ABA school went to undergrad and for example I went to a California State University. I knew that Northwestern, Stanford, UCLA, USC etc were "better" undergrads.

The issue you cite is where I think the problem lies and was even my situation, I was using the rankings to decide between the following schools Penn State, Michigan State Tulsa, Franklin Pierce (now University of New Hampshire), Florida International, Texas Wesleyan (Now Texas A&M), University of San Francisco, Golden Gate, Chapman, and Santa Clara.

I was living in China when making my decision, which is why my schools were all over the map and I was not being realistic about location at all.

The rankings have no utility for any of these schools. If I wanted to live in Michigan-Michigan State would have been the best choice.  New Hampshire-New Hampshire, then as to the Bay Area Schools at the time USF was "better" than Santa Clara now USF is barely ranked and Golden Gate was "tier 4", but now it is the same as USF. None of those three bay area schools are really much different when Boalt & Stanford are right here not to mention the array of Harvard, Yale, NYU etc grads that move to the Bay Area.

Many of my friends went to Boalt & Harvard and have no idea that there is even a difference between USF, Santa Clara and Golden Gate. It is essentially the distinction I made earlier about two students fighting over the 55th and 72nd class rank who would know or care?

As I have said you can use the rankings as a tie-breaker and to someone out there it might make a difference, you never know. However, if you wear a blue suit to an interview instead of a gray one that could make a difference as well. 

I may even be even stupider than most 0L's when making my decision by using the rankings as a guide, but using the rankings to make a life altering decision is not a good idea. At least in my anonymous internet poster opinion, which is worth according to Michale Scott the most reliable source of information ever :)

Distance Education Law Schools / Re: NOVUS LAW SCHOOL?
« on: October 15, 2015, 12:22:47 PM »
I wonder if that is why the case was dismissed? If NOVUS won a motion to dismiss I assume standing was the issue.

If Touro has standing to sue NOVUS what stops Harvard from suing Touro etc.  If you thought schools fighitng for rankings was bad, why not just let them litigate with each other and the winner gets ranked #1. At least that would be an objective ranking opposed to scantrons they use.

The whole lawsuit seems stupid, why Touro a school with a less than stellar reputation itself would use its resources to attack Novus? Unless they let Touro Grads participate in the lawsuit to get experience, I don't see why Touro would pick a fight with an obscure unaccredited law school.

I think law school grades can be analgous to U.S. News. If you are in the top 10% of your class you did well and there is merit to that distinction. However, is there a much difference between someone in the top 8% v. top 10% not really. Is there a difference between someone in the top 10% and the bottom 75%? Yes.

However, even if you go lower is the student in ranked 55 out of 100 that much better or worse than someone ranked 72 out of 100? I don't think it matters much at that point. Both are mediocre law school performers sure it is better to be 55 than 72, but no employer will say wow you were 55th amazing.

U.S. News is the same situation if you are in the top 10% of schools then there is a real distinction and maybe even in the top 25% of schools that is a factor to consider, but when you get to 78th v 112th what does it matter?

I assume most law students would know that University of Texas & UCLA are solid schools. I think that goes to my point in that UCLA is a university people know all over the United States as is University of Texas. The campuses are beautiful, they have massive alumni networks etc.

I think it is fair to say that most people would know that UCLA is a "better" school than Southwestern or Loyola Marymont. I also assume most people would know that University of Texas is "better" than South Texas College of Law or St. Mary's College of Law.

I have no issue with U.S. News offering the rankings it is a money maker and if people want to pay to listen to their opinion let them. If people Tony Robbins wants to give life coach lectures more power to him. However, I wouldn't recommend that anyone take either that seriously.

As I am sure you remember as a OL everyone is insecure about their decision, most incoming 0L's are very dilligent researchers who wants to be sure they are making the "right" choice. U.S. News exploits that fear for profit by making an arbitrary ranking of schools.

There is no ranking for every single undergraduate institution, but when I was a high school student I knew UCLA was a "better" school than Cal. State L.A. or Cal. State Northridge. Not that there is anything wrong with Cal State L.A. or CSUN, but UCLA is a better school. I knew that without a magazine telling me.

I knew UCLA was a better school than Southwestern, but as a OL when I saw a school ranked 70 instead of 94th I actually thought it meant something, but it doesn't.

Like most things involving law school if you use common sense a lot of issues can be resolved, but U.S. News makes a profit on 0L's by releasing this ranking to confuse people during a confusing part of their life. However, they are more than entitled to make a profit for their opinion, but incoming 0L's don't have to listen to it and they shouldn't listen to it either.

Agreed yea I will extend that to T14 and really even any school with a National Name. I don't know what BYU is ranked I am sure I could google to find out, but that is probably the best school you could possibly attend if you want to live in Utah.

There are schools everybody knows or the vast majority as "great" schools. Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Georgetown, Berkeley, NYU, Michigan, Notre Dame, UCLA, USC, Duke, Vanderbilt, Cornell, etc  I could go on, but there are certain schools known nationwide and those are worth attending.

In my situation attending Tulsa over University of San Francisco based on rankings, would have been based a bad decision. Tulsa is not a school with a nationwide rep nor is University of San Francisco they are both fine schools, but nobody is going to be impressed by either one.

Right now Notre Dame is "ranked" almost equally with UC Davis. . However, Notre Dame has a far stronger alumni network and national name than Davis does.

So you don't even need the rankings really before they were published Harvard was a good school as were the others I listed and everybody knew it. It is essentially amounts to a magazine telling us Shaq is big, I knew that already and didn't need a magazine to tell me.

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