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Messages - Citylaw

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Chemerinsky always makes good points, but I don't think it needs to be any easier or any change is necessary. California is a very desirable place to live and there is no shortage of lawyers in California.

If the pass rates were 10% maybe something needed to change, but according to the July 2014 Bar Exam Results 3,818 out of 6,220 people passed.

 This is a pass rate of 61.4% of all non-aba, aba, repeaters, etc. 61% passed.

3,818 were able to do it so it can be done. Does UC Irvine having a 60% bar passage rate have more to do with him being upset probably? However, even if you look at the numbers for Irvine it is one of those messed up thing 3 out of 5 UCI students passed so 60% passage. B.S., but I am sure that 60% did not impress his bosses at UCI so he is taking it out in the article.

Is the bar extremely difficult, yes. However, as my professor told me it is supposed to hard.

I wanted to be in the NBA, but I didn't make it. I don't think they should make it easier to get in. Anything worth doing is not easy and if the percentage was 5% and there were not enough lawyers in California then make it easier, but people do pass and there are certainly more than enough lawyers in California as it is.

I think one of the main reasons California is routinely lower is you can take the examination by attending a non-aba school.

Additionally, these are three simple theories that may or may not be true, but may have an impact.

1) California allows foreign law school grads that complete an LLM to take the California Bar. Do those test takers count as ABA law school grad/first time takers? If so I imagine the percentage of those grads passing on the first try is substantially lower. Not even because of intelligence, but simply if English is not your first language noticing the minor nuances on a MBE question would be difficult as would adjusting to life in a new country etc .

2) I believe California has the most out-of-state ABA law school grads taking the exam.  For any student taking an exam in the state they did not attend law school makes a difference. Although, there is a lot of similarities there are differences in state law.

3) I believe many attorneys that graduated law school long-ago and passed a separate bar years ago attempt to take the California Bar, while working etc. I knew a Stanford undergrad and law school grad that was very intelligent and worked for one of the most prestigious law firms in New York, which is the exam they took out of law school.  10 years later this person attempted to take the California Bar and  did not pass. They were having to bill 200 hours while simultaneously studying for the California Bar and then had to fly into California etc. The person is a first-time taker ABA grad, but not the typical type you think of.

I would be interested to know what the percentage of California ABA Law School Grads who are taking their first bar exam three months after graduating from law school is.

On top of that lets be honest whether you pass the bar or not has a lot more to do with the individaul. I had a friend in law school that just did not take it seriously the first time. She was fully capable of passing and did, but she was burned out from law school and admits she put in a half-ass effort and did not pass. Is that the law school or California Bar's fault? No.  Another friend of mine in law school had one of his parents die two weeks before the exam and another was diagnosed with cancer a month before. These people did not pass on their first time either and all three went on to pass on their second try, but those instances make it understandable how they did not pass on their first try.

People are people and I guess I really dislike these blanket statistics that cannot possibly take into consideration each individuals personal circumstances.

The California Bar Exam is difficult, but thousands of people pass it each year so it is not impossible.

I also think the number of applicants has gone down significantly so there are less competitive students.  When the economy collapsed in 2008-2009 law school applications were significantly higher in 2011-2012.

76% in 20122
68.3% in 2012

Then everyone said there were no jobs etc and then law school applications are now down significantly. Therefore, a less competitive pool and lower passage rates.

Let's also not forget that exam soft collapsed during the 2014 California Bar Exam, which likely did not help anyone.

Law School Admissions / Re: Upcoming Undergrad-- Law???
« on: May 27, 2015, 04:35:10 PM »
There are no prerequisites for admission to law school other than a bachelor's degree and an LSAT score.

The better your GPA and the better your LSAT score the more opportunity you will have.

Basically, pursue something your interested in for undergraduate if your into biology then get a B.S in biology and get a 4.0. If you want to get a B.A. in music then get a B.A in music and get a 4.0.

You essentially want to get a B.A or B.S. while getting the highest GPA possible. So keep it simple and study something you enjoy and don't make any life altering decisions based on wanting to go to law school at this point.

A lot will change in your mind during college and maybe you will go onto law school, but maybe you will fall in love with chemistry and get a degree in that. Whatever, you study take it seriously in undergrad and it will keep as many graduate school doors open as possible.

I know Med School has substantial pre-req requirements, but law school does not.

Good luck.

Online Law Schools / Re: Graduation
« on: May 27, 2015, 03:16:15 PM »
All I  asked for was an actual case where someone went to jail. There is probably a statute out there that says you can go to jail for using expletives on the internet so hypothetically you could go to jail for that. You made a claim of Novus Grads possibly going to jail for attending Novus. I am seriously interested in hearing about that or anyone every going to jail under the law you mentioned.  Not trying to be a smart-ass or anything, but there are numerous unconstitutional laws on the books and what you cited seems unconstitutional, but I have been wrong before.

Again, I am genuinely interested in hearing about any Novus Grad or a graduate of any of the schools mentioned in the link you posted actually going to jail.

Online Law Schools / Re: Graduation
« on: May 27, 2015, 02:03:06 PM »
Interesting analysis and again who knows.  I find it unlikely a prosecutor would take that case in the first place, but in the event a prosecutor did take the case, I believe there are several defenses. First and foremost it is restricting Freedom of Speech and Association., why can't you say you attended a school that you attended and why would you be prosecuted for associating with an institution.

I also think it would violate privileges and immunities particularly if there are licensed  NOVUS lawyers out there.  It could also be considered a regulatory taking. If X student paid the tuition, spent the time etc and had this education and was penalized for earning it that could also be an issue.

Then as a low test as it is what is the rational basis for preventing someone from saying they attended a school they actually attended.

 There are so many issues with that law as applied, which is why I would be fascinated to hear of any actual case where someone was prosecuted for attending Novus or any of the schools mentioned in that list. I find it highly unlikely it has ever occurred, but again if there is an actual case I would love to read about it.

People make mistakes and professors are wrong from time to time.  Additionally, when it comes to bar admission the only people you can believe are the people issuing the license.

There are always a bunch of rumors etc about x, y, z, but never rely on them until you check the with the actual people or organization in charge of making the decision.

Online Law Schools / Re: Graduation
« on: May 27, 2015, 12:13:17 PM »
Exactly and if someone went to Novus Law School and  held themselves out as a lawyer obtained payment and did not have a license to practice law then it would be a crime.

However, if someone gets a license to practice law in Texas with a Novus Degree then they are a licensed lawyer. I don't know if a Novus Grad could even get a license to practice law in Texas or anywhere, but if they did then they are a lawyer.

Additionally, there are countless City, County and Local Regulations that are never enforced. I am a City Attorney and know there are several misdemeanors in our Municipal Code that are completely illegal to enforce and we don't.   If a Novus Grad has been incarcerated for saying they attended a school that they attended then I really want to hear about it.

 I would be really interested to read more about, but I find it very unlikely that it has ever occurred. Even if it didn't occur as Novus if any student was arrested for simply attending any of the schools on that list please share it. I am sincerely interested to learn more about how that occurred, but again I doubt it has ever happened, but crazier things have happened in this world.

Online Law Schools / Re: Graduation
« on: May 27, 2015, 10:18:20 AM »
Your story involves a Professor who said he attended a University and earned a Doctorate, but he never attended the University or earned a doctorate. He went on to create a forged diploma. That is obviously a crime.

However, attending Novus Law School and saying you attended Novus Law School is a not a crime.

I was actually very interested in learning about Novus Grads being prosecuted for telling the truth on their resume, but it was a pointless exaggeration. The internet is well known for pointless exaggerations and it is probably good for boards like this. 

Seriously, if you do hear of Novus Grads going to jail for saying they attended a school they actually attended please share on this thread.

Online Law Schools / Re: Graduation
« on: May 27, 2015, 09:12:08 AM »
So to sum it all up if a Novus Law Grad claims to be licensed to practice law and is not then a crime has been committed. Pretending to be licensed when you are not is the unauthorized practice of law and a crime etc. However, even I as an ABA law school graduate licensed in California cannot go into a New York Court and say I am licensed, because I am not licensed in New York and saying I was would be a crime.   A Harvard grad that never passed or took the bar is also not licensed and has as much right to represent someone in court as an unlicensed Novus Grad does. If an unlicensed Harvard grad goes int court and claims to be licensed then the Harvard grad committed a crime.

If a Novus Grad somehow, becomes licensed to practice law in a state then they are licensed to practice law. Whether a Novus grad can obtain a license is a question I can't answer, but I do know that attending a school and putting a school that you actually attended on your resume is not a crime. If you claim that the degree you got from Novus makes you a licensed surgeon, therapist, etc again that would a be a crime, but if attended Novus Law School and graduate from Novus Law School then saying you attended Novus law school is not a crime.

  In all honesty, if a Novus Grad has been arrested, convicted, etc for telling the truth on their resume then I really want to know more about it and please share.

I would not recommend going to an unaccredited school, but you will not go to jail for it. If Novus is accredited by a state bar or something then more power to it, but I don't know anything about the school other than it is not ABA approved. However, there are plenty of successful California Bar School graduates out there and if a Novus Grad gets licensed to practice law then they have as much right as any other attorney in that state to practice law.

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