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Widener U School of Law / Re: TAP Harrisburg 2014
« on: May 12, 2014, 08:07:31 PM »
It is probably the right decision you do not want to attend law school if your not ready. It is not going anywhere and rushing into a program for no real reason usually turns out poorly.

I encourage you to reapply to Widener and other schools when everything in your life is settled.

Good luck.

Widener U School of Law / Re: Widener TAP 2013
« on: May 12, 2014, 08:01:35 PM »
Excellent posts Maintain and every single school has attrition and it can happen for a number of reasons as Maintain cites. Part Timers are the mostly likely to drop out for non-academic reasons as they simply do not have time to complete law school.

One thing is certain though no school wants their students to fail out removing paying tuition paying students and reporting attrition to LSAC is not something any law school wants to do, but at the end of the day it is up to the individual student to do what is necessary to succeed, and if schools are taking money and time from someone that they honestly believe is not capable of passing the bar it is unethical and potentially illegal.

Similar to the case in Contracts many students read where the dance instructor kept taking money from a 70 year woman who the instructor  convinced woudl be a professional dancer if she kept taking lessons. Here is a summary of the case

Law school is no different if someone is incapable of getting passing grades on 1L exams where you have multiple days to review one subject and you know exactly what will be on the exam then there is no way you will be capable of handling the bar exam.

Widener U School of Law / Re: Widener TAP 2013
« on: May 11, 2014, 03:53:49 PM »
The Attrition stats on LSAC can be misleading. It is true 30.1% of the class or a total of 55 student did not attend Widener for 2L.

However, only 23 of the 55 student were dismissed for academic performance the other 32 left for other reasons 17 of that 32 were transfer students likely to higher ranked schools. A number of people after 1L either choose not to continue with their legal education, have a family emergency, are offered a job that does not require a J.D. etc.

In reality about 12% of the Widener 1L class failed out not 30%.

The purpose of this post is that many people believe law schools attempt or have to fail students out, which is absolutely not true. Remember at the end of the day a law school is a business and they want their students to succeed and pay tuition. ABA schools however, have an ethical obligation to dismiss students they feel are incapable of passing a bar exam since it would be wrong to take two more years of their life and $60,000 more in tuition fees when it is clear the student is not capable of passing the bar.

If a student cannot handle 1L there is no way they will pass the bar and schools academically dismiss students, but there is no requirement to do and every single law school in America would love to have 0% attrition; 100% bar passage rate; and every dime of student tuition collected, but that doesn't happen anywhere, because when dealing with 500 individual law students at any law school there will be personal issues that will lead to success or failure at any institution.

It used to be similar to top law schools full of a bunch negative people that had no idea what they were talking about arguing with eachother.

The forum has less activity now, but there is no negativity, which leads to actual advice that might actually help make the right law school decision.

Widener U School of Law / Re: Widener TAP 2013
« on: May 08, 2014, 10:40:25 PM »
I do not know anything specifically about Widener, but I think the program makes sense for those that really want to attend law school.

It is my understanding that TAP compromises of students without sufficient numbers to be accepted into most law schools. However, the numbers are not necessarily indicative of success in law school or legal education.

On the first day of law school your GPA/LSAT means nothing to perfectly I cannot even remember what my LSAT score was.

At my school a few bragged about their LSAT score since it was well above the median etc, but two of those people ended up failing out of law school. You could score 180 on the LSAT if you do not study or are not capable of writing a law school essay you are not getting through 1L or passing the bar.

TAP seems like a program that tests these skills and if you get through the program you will likely do well in law school and pass the bar.

Widener U School of Law / Re: TAP Harrisburg 2014
« on: May 08, 2014, 10:28:54 PM »
Realistically I imagine Widener wants you to succeed remember at the end of the day law school is a business and they need tuition money.

I am completely unfamiliar with Widener, but I imagine this program is a way to see if people are capable of putting in the work required for law school. I am sure Widener would love every student in TAP to perform well and pay tuition for three years, but ABA schools need to be sure there students are capable of passing the bar.

I do think a situation of commuting an hour & half for this program is not a good idea. To succeed in law school and the legal profession you need to be all in and 1.5 hour daily commute on top of the rigors of law school is not a good combination.

You can just pay the deposit at both schools and hold your spot.

Granted you will use between 300-$1,000 dollars, but keeping your option open is certainly worth that.

When I was a 0L I put deposits down at three schools and obviously two of those three I did not end up attending. Every school has a number of people on their waitlist and they are more than happy to take a few hundred dollars from you for nothing.

With that said pay the deposits at both schools so you have time to visit them and make the right choice.

Good luck to you.

Excellent post and just to clarify relationships can and do work in law school, but add on long distance and the fiancÚ being faced with opportunities at graduation 1,000 miles away  and does not have a great chance of success.

Would it be possible to defer your choice until she finishes school or for her to transfer and complete her degree at the school you attend.

If your relationship with her is a #1 priority I think a lot of very difficult obstacles are being placed in front of you. Law school first year is insane and there were about 20 people in my first year section in 1L in long distance relationships and that all broke-up except for one and the girl transferred back to her homestate to be with her husband, because they were going to break up.

Essentially so many things will be changing for both of you so fast if your not on the same page a lot of difficult choices will come up. For example you have no idea where you will end up 1L summer and if she is completing a degree program she has no idea what opportunities will come her way. 

Hypothetically let's say you are attending Michigan and she visits you in November and with both of your South Florida Backgrounds she says holy s*** it is minus 0 I cannot live here and your stressed out with 1L finals unable to really pay much attention to her.  She is frustrated and a few months graduates  from her grad school program and is offered her job in Miami. She is then left with the choice of moving to Michigan where you have no job, she has no job, you have law school friends, but she will never completely fit in with that group,, then she can also endure subzero temperatures for half the year as well.  Or she can stay in Miami and obtain her dream job and leave it up to you to transfer back, which will likely result in you moving back to Miami or breaking up.

You may have survived long-distance relationships with her before, but there will be a lot of choices coming up for both of in different locations and one of you is going to have to make a major sacrifice, but it appears both of you are very motivated people. I saw this happen in my 1L class about 20 people were in long-distance relationships and everyone single one ended except one girl transferred law schools to be back with her husband.

Every incoming law student thinks they will be in the top 10% of their class, be offered a job exactly where they want, none of their relationships will be impacted etc, etc. I hope you are in the top 10% at whatever school you attend, get multiple job offers in Miami for 1L and post grad, and your relationship is stronger than ever due to the law school experience.

However, the reality is if you attend Georgetown, Vanderbilt, or Michigan while your fiance is attending Grad School in Miami your relationship will probably end. If you choose a law school and both move together it can work, but I would have little hope in the relationship actually surviving past first year of law school unless you transfer back to Miami for 2L. Again, I sincerely hope I am wrong, but you can see all the choices that will be laid out and problems arising leaving your relationship undecided.

Additionally, odds are you will not get a 1L job offer in Miami if you attend Georgetown, Michigan, or Vanderbilt. If you attend Georgetown your 1L will probably be in D.C, Michigan in Michigan, Vanderbilt in Tennessee. Most firms do not go out of their way to recruit 1L's for summer unless you are in the top of your class and there is a 90% chance you will not be in the top 10% and a 50% chance you will be in the bottom half of your class. Nothing personal against you, but just the reality as everyone in law school is extremely smart, hard working, and motivated.

Additionally, if your relationship ends while your in law school it can be very bad for your academic performance. If you get the call she is staying in Miami while your studying for finals it will have a negative impact on your performance.  If you finish in the bottom half or 25% of the class your options will be limited post-graduation.

One of the main reasons I post on this site is because I was in your exact situation 5 years ago. I was engaged and living in San Francisco both my fiance and I wanted to continue living in San Francisco, but I was accepted to Michigan for law school. I was thrilled to be accepted to such a prestigious and highly ranked school as an idiotic 0L I thought both of us will just move to Michigan and everything will work out.

As the days grew closer and the reality of moving to Michigan and my fiance having absolutely no plan for what she was going to do there tensions started to grow. I then called a few actual lawyers in the Bay Area and explained my situation and they all gave me the same advice if you know where you want to live at graduation attend law school there. My Dad also said if your fiance really is important do not make her follow you somewhere where she has minimal options. If my fiance just wanted to be a housewife it would have worked out, but she is a motivated person and obtained a very high paying awesome job in the Bay Area, which helped us significantly while I was in law school.  In your situation your fiance also appears to be a motivated person she is in grad school and seems to be very independent if you move her to Ann Arbor Michigan, or some other city where she is just a tag-along to all your law school friends it is unlikely to go well.

Again I hope I am wrong about all of this and everything works out awesome for you. However, I would say the following are your best options assuming your fiance is a #1 priority.

1) Recontact FIU and see if you can enroll I am sure they will be happy to take you in. The law school I ended up in attending in San Francisco let me back in after I rejected them remember they are businesses and more than happy to have a qualified student come in and pay tuition.

2) Defer your admission for a year until you and your fiance can move to whatever City together and develop a life simultaneously and make the choice together.

3) If attending the law school you want is the #1 option then choose Michigan, Georgetown, or Vanderbilt, but do not expect your fiance to end up following you to any of these places.

4) Again, if you want really want to end up in South Florida/Miami attend law school in South Florida or Miami.

I wish you the best and do remember I am nothing more than an anonymous internet poster who has never met you, your fiance, or knows the first thing about you so take my advice with a grain of salt. I would recommend applying the above thoughts to your situation and considering the reality of the situation where you are in Tennessee, Michigan, or D.C. while your fiance is awaiting graduation from a masters program in Miami.

Good luck on your decision whatever you do will end up working out and again you should be very proud of your acceptances to these schools.


There is no right answer, but Rutgers is 25k per year while Seton Hall is 46K per year, which means over three years you will pay 63k more to attend Seton Hall than Rutgers assuming you have in-state residency.

You should also visit both schools and walk around the campus, talk to professors, students, admins, etc and see what school feels right for you.

Also remember that at either school you will learn the same exact thing. At any ABA school you will learn the basics of the law and Rutgers, Seton Hall, or any ABA law school will provide you with a quality legal education.

If I was you, which I am not I would favor Rutgers since I do typically don't think paying $63,000 more for more or less the same thing is a good idea, but to each their own.

Good luck on your pursuit of a legal education.

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