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Messages - Citylaw
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« on: August 14, 2015, 04:21:57 PM »
That is pretty good and to be honest the case-briefings do not need to follow any formula all that matters is that you learn the material.
My first semester I robotically put all the headings Facts; Procedural History, Issue, Holding, Reasoning etc.
Then for 2L and 3L I came up with my own system of narrowing each case down to a paragraph and a separate outline for the rules. It worked great for me, but there are countless ways to do it.
One thing that helped me with learning the law was ecasebriefs.com I would read that before reading the case in the casebook.
There are going to be a lot of freakouts and overthinking during 1L that is part of the process, but try to keep it simple and you will do well.
As to the case sounds like you are learning the elements of battery and you are getting to take Torts some of the most interesting stories I loved it.
I don't remember the case from law school, but it seems like the court is trying to determine if he had the "intent" to harm Garrat and another issue might have been harmful or offensive touching although no actual touch occurred with the Plainitff they touched the object they were going to sit on and moved it, which led to a touching.
Really the issue in that case is "intent" since you are studying intentional torts intent must be established. There are lot of things you can do that could hurt someone, but there is a big difference on whether you intended to hurt someone or not. Moving a chair in and of itself is not actionable, but moving a chair at the last second intending to harm someone is.
« on: August 14, 2015, 03:47:26 PM »
California is a very unique state and there are countless counties with hundreds of thousands of people in them without an ABA school within 200 miles. Humboldt, San Joaquin, Fresno, Siskiyou, King, Butte, Calaveras to name a few.
This unique setup is likely why CBA schools have done well. In San Joaquin County it's CBA school San Joaquin College of Law does quite well. Cal-Northern does quite well in Butte County and Monterrey College of Law does well in Monterrey and Empire College of Law does well in Santa Rosa.
That is the thing with California there are jobs for California Attorneys, but in places nobody wants to live.
As to being overly-optimistic I don't think I ever encouraged anyone to go to law school. All I ever say is you "can" succeed. I "can" have six pack abs if I exercised more and ate less as could most people. However, instead of going to the gym last night I went out drinking and I just ate a huge burrito. Nobody forced me to do those things and I could easily have not done them, but I choose the easier route.
This is the same with attending law school. You "can" finish as Valedictorian, but will you dig deep every-night for three years, attend every class, never check your e-mail during class, go to professor office hours, brief every case and do every single practice problem imaginable? Probably not and even if you do all that you probably won't be #1, but odds are you will no do any of those things.
We all tell ourselves we will do this. BowFlex sells the ripped body image to people and if you buy one and use it all the time you would probably get in great shape, but nobody does it. Everybody wants to learn a language and tries half-ass although they can "learn" one. I am certain everyone involved in this conversation "can" be doing something more productive, but for whatever reason we seem to enjoy arguing with each other anonymously over the internet.
So if you attend Taft or any law school be realistic.
End of rant.
« on: August 14, 2015, 01:31:48 PM »
The Barber Shop, Dentist, Doctor all of them need licenses and I don't care where they went as long as they are reasonable and get the job done.
My dentist is two blocks away I truly have no idea where they went to Dental School, but I like them. They are licensed and I am not going to seek out another Dentist the Barber is the same thing I don't care where they went to cosmetology school I need a haircut. This is how people feel about lawyers believe it or not they have other things to worry about than what school you went to, what you got in contracts, etc. Some people do, but for the most part they want legal work done end of story.
As for the U.S. ALJ cases I assume you are referring to LP's SSI cases, but in California for normal representation such as Family Law/Criminal Defense etc work there is no $4,000 requirement. http://www.calbar.ca.gov/portals/0/documents/mfa/Sample-Fee-Agreement-Forms.pdf
see the forms provided by Cal-Bar.
Again, as I have said court is not an ivory tower. Not everything is done perfectly in fact far from it particularly in busy-state courts. Federal Court is a different animal, but California State Courts particularly Criminal/Family law ones are a zoo.
« on: August 14, 2015, 12:29:56 PM »
It is not as hard anymore so F-them for making me take the harder one.
It will be very interesting to see what the pass rates are in 2017 if this change actually takes effect.
« on: August 14, 2015, 12:25:21 PM »
Go to a small town in California of which there are plenty and you can find lawyers billing $350 an hour. I am not sure where LP was located, but Butte County, Siskiyou County, Fresno County, Kern County, Calveras County, I could go on and on have almost no lawyers in them and often plenty of drug problems and therefore extensive criminal/family law cases.
People succeed not everyone goes the same route and if you have the aggressiveness to start a business I know plenty of people like LP that have succeed in Solo Practice. Doing criminal defense/family/foreclosure defense etc is not rocket science, but you have to deal with people and relate with clients. Clients particularly criminal defense/family law etc clients do not care what your LSAT score was and are unlikely to know the difference between an ABA/Non-ABA school.
Those clients aren't attracted that nitpick every detail etc. Those are the kind of people that have been *&^%**ng on criminal defendants, poor people in divorce or those being foreclosed on.
There are plenty of paths in the legal profession and LP took one. Not everybody goes to Federal Clerkship to law Firm nor do they want to.
I will make analogy I live in San Francisco so there are plenty of "boutique" barbers-hair salons etc that have charged me $60 for a haircut, but I don't need a $60 haircut so I go to Supercuts for $15.00. The barbers and boutiques probably went to some better cosmetology school or something, but I could care less my hair gets to long and I want to shorten it.
With a criminal defendant/family law case you don't need a Harvard guy to handle it. As LP says get a practice guide and fill out the forms and charge per hour and just because you also just because you bill these type of clients $350hr doesn't mean you will get full payment either. It is not representing a Bank or something where the money is guaranteed or working for a City, which I do now where payments and it is great. However, I have worked in small firms probably similar to LP where we spent 50 hours on a case only to have our client file bankruptcy and not collect a dime. Those are risks and why you should get a retainer lesson learned after that, but there are plenty of avenues in the legal field. However, none are easy and neither is anything else.
Again, if someone knows of a career that guaranteeing a million dollar salary, sitting in a cush office, offering court-side seats to the warriors and a private jet that is easy to get I really want to know. I will get out of this rat-race and do if that gig is easily obtainable.
« on: August 13, 2015, 07:00:04 PM »
I didn't say it was likely or even a good idea, but they could take the California Bar and attempt a lawsuit not an ideal situation, but for that persons situation if they really wanted to attend law school that would probably be a better route than attending an ABA school. Or before going to Taft that person could contact the Idaho Bar and what if any options they can reach and maybe one can't be reached.
TheA 6'1 Canadian winning the NBA MVP is highly unlikely, but it happened. However, I would not encourage any 6'1 Canadian to drop everything and pursue an NBA career, but people are responsible for their own lives and I am sure plenty of people told Steve Nash it couldn't be done and he can laugh in their face, but I wouldn't have bet on Steve Nash either nor will I bet on another 6'1 Canadian winning an NBA MVP.
As Legal Practioner's post said the point is to find alternatives.
Taft is unlikely to be anyone's dream school, but for the person in the Boise Scenario a DL school is probably their best option if they really want to be a lawyer and it may not work out. The logical thing for that person and probably better choice would be not to attend law school at all and why obtaining education at a younger age is the better route, but as I stated not everyone fits the cookie cutter mold of a 23-24 year old 1L right out of undergrad without any responsibility, but yea get straight A's in undergrad, 180 on the LSAT attend Harvard make partner by the time your 30 get married at 32 knock out a few kids and buy a few mansions and sail around the world. I recommend that route to anyone, but unfortunately it hardly ever happens, but I recommend that route over Taft.
« on: August 13, 2015, 05:25:08 PM »
If that is the rate to take the bar exam in California that is great.
I think costs are a huge factor and DL schools are great for non-traditional students.
I think the typical right out of undergrad student is better served going to an ABA-School, but a 38 year old married professional with lets say two kids that lives in lets just say Boise Idaho with the nearest ABA School U of Idaho 500 miles away attending a non-aba school is not a realistic option. They could move their family, lose jobs and pay $100,000 while losing their income to attend an ABA school or if those costs are true put a few $1,000 down and continuing living their life. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out. In that scenario going to an ABA school makes no sense a DL school does.
If that student passes the California Bar then they might have to Petition the Idaho Bar to take the exam, but under those facts and having passed the Cali-Exam I think a court would allow it, but no guarantees. Again, those all considerations a non-aba grad would have to take into consideration.
I think the issue with a lot of bloggers etc is that they only see their scenario and for an unattached single person right out of undergrad they can realistically move anywhere and they have years to recoup their educational investment. So in that scenario yea attend an ABA school, but not everyone has that setup.
I am sure as a Taft grad you knew what you were into and a Federal Clerkship-Big Law gig was not going to happen and it doesn't happen for most ABA grads either.
I attended an ABA school, but by no means was it Harvard and I went in with realistic expectations and I was happy with my school and career up to this point. Different things work for different people.
« on: August 13, 2015, 01:14:21 PM »
I agree 100%.
Law school is a risk as is any form form of education and don't do it expecting anything to be handed to you . Additionally, the lower the level the law school you attend the harder it will be to succeed, but for all intents and purposes most ABA schools are on the same level the location/cost matters more than whatever a school is "ranked" with obvious exceptions Harvard, Yale Stanford and the like.
A non-aba is not the same level as an ABA school. Although you might be able to get licensed in another state after passing the California Bar Exam you will have to fight just to take the test. I personally have been to lazy to fill out some paperwork to get admitted into the D.C. Bar and I certainly would not want to or get around to filing a lawsuit to take a bar exam.
I also recommend anyone attending law school to try working in a law office for a year or two as a paralegal or something. The life of a lawyer is not as cool as it is portrayed on TV and that can be said about every profession. like every other profession is not as cool as it is on T.V.
Additionally, just because you attend law school does not mean your a special little snowflake as I tell anyone that attends law school there is a 90% chance they won't be in the top 10% and a 50% chance they will be in the bottom-half of their class. Realistically, if you want attend Cooley and finish in the bottom half of your class your job prospects are not ideal, but you take that risk when choosing to enter.
There are no guarantees and law school is expensive it is a choice people make, but all a law school owes you is the right to take a bar exam. That is all they are selling.
« on: August 13, 2015, 12:45:01 PM »
They do happen to people at bad, medium and good schools.
Yes I agree with your football camp analogy and it sounds like we are in agreement. A degree from Harvard will get you into training camp, but not a roster spot.
Harvard is a great school and will undoubtedly open more doors.
If you want to be an NBA Basketball Player being 7'0 is better than being 6'2 . No argument there, but can a 6'2 guy do better than a 7'0 yes it happens, but I will bet on the 7'0 everytime.
I will bet on a Harvard Grad over a Taft Grad anyday of the week nobody is arguing that, but as with any bet it could go wrong the Taft Grad might end up being better, but I wouldn't bet on it.
I don't think anybody was hurt by going to law school. It didn't work for some people that is life and I wouldn't tell anyone oh you got into Taft Law School your set for life you really did it. I would say a non-aba school the odds are against you and thinking you will "work really hard" and do great isn't the same as doing it. Everybody thinks that and for the most part when the rubber meets the road people back down.
I encourage anyone to attend an ABA school over a non-aba school.
« on: August 13, 2015, 12:38:21 PM »
Agreed passing the bar is certainly doable and I passed it so it is far from impossible.
There are some head shaking moments dealing with plenty of licensed lawyers and I think the current difficulty is fine.
I think some things could be changed such as taking the bar after your 2L. I think it sucks that you have to wait months to be a licensed attorney after graduating, but the exam itself is a good "bar" to practice law.
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