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Current Law Students / Re: Are Lawyers Getting Dumber Aritcle?
« on: September 15, 2015, 02:27:31 PM »
Well I think your whole premise that schools are becoming lies picky is resulting in lower bar passage rate.

Essentially the applicants that normally would be getting into Hastings, but rejected from Boalt or Stanford are now able to get into Boalt and Stanford. The applicants that normally would get into USF or Golden Gate can now get into Hastings and USF and Golden Gate are left admitting people on the cusp that may not all be ABA school ready, which results in lower scores. Plenty of people will pass from every school, but the talent pool is reduced resulting in lower scores thereby resulting in the publication of the initial article.

It is actually probably just back to normal. I think in 2008, 2009, 2010 it was the opposite effect people that should have been getting into Boalt or Stanford had to settle for Hastings, people that should have been accepted to Hastings had to settle for USF and Golden Gate and none of the fringe candidates were admitted resulting in high passage rates during that time.  Then all these people complained about the lack of jobs etc, resulting in a dip in applications and the scenario above.

There will soon not be enough lawyers and law school will become more attractive again, but then the same thing will happen.

It is just capitalism at its finest.

I think there are solid posts above and there is no real reason to go, but as a few posters said if you think you want a J.D. to practice law on the side it usually doesn't work out well. It is not really a part-time profession.

I think most potential 0L's are best suited to work in a law office for a year or so prior to applying to law school. There are parts of the legal profession that are awesome and others that suck. On Friday I was arguing a big hearing, which was fun to watch today and tomorrow I am going to be looking through boxes of documents to draft discovery responses, which is miserable.

So like every other job out there it is not constantly awesome, but if someone knows of a job that is 100% amazing all the time please let me know.

I think one of the best reasons to apply to law school is that as a lawyer you do have the power to change things and you are either licensed to practice law or your not. If you have a license to practice law you can represent a client and make a difference in someones life.  No other profession allows you to fight for or against the right to gay marriage in court, or sue the police for brutality, or defend police officers from frivolous lawsuits on and on. I think the judicial branch is the part of the political system that really matters and you can only be a part of it with a license to practice law.

As to the "rich" part plenty of lawyers do well, but it is rarely monetary success out of the gate. Furthermore, many of the lucrative positions require you to do some unpleasant things. I.E. if your bank attorney you have to force someone of their home, or if a corporation spills oil and kills some people you don't need to minimize the value of the deceased lives, etc everybody deserves a defense and there is nothing wrong with that, but there are real people involved in litigation and what the lawyers do or don't do makes a huge impact on people's lives.

Studying for the LSAT / Re: 162 to 170 before October LSAT?
« on: September 14, 2015, 10:14:51 AM »
Well it sounds like you have done everything you can. The vast majority of people do not get 150 on the LSAT yet alone 160 and a very, very small minority get 170 or above.  If you get a 162 that is a very solid score and you can be admitted to a number of ABA law schools with substantial scholarship money.

I think for most 0L's like yourself the LSAT is the first reality check. You were probably a great high school student, clearly a great college student with a 3.95, but now you are going to the big leagues, which is law school. Everyone is striving to get a 170 and was a great high school and college student and no matter what law school you attend everyone is going to be smart, hard-working and motivated and there is a 50% chance you will finish in the bottom half of the class, this is nothing against you personally just the reality. There is a 10% chance you will finish in the top 10%, but 100% of Ol's come into law school certain they will be in the top 10%, but 90% are wrong.

I hope you get a 170, but all you can do is take the test. I don't know how many people put it off for years hoping to get a better score, but it sounds like you have done everything you can. Keep studying and get a real score maybe you will get a 180, maybe you will get a 148 I don't know nor does anyone else. Once you have a real score you will know your options, but until you have a real score it is all speculation. If you really think you bomb it you can retake, but if I was you I would take this October LSAT and start applying to schools.

If you really want to try and improve the October LSAT you can take the February one and see if you improve there is no harm, but just take it.

Good luck.

Well if your not in the real world yet your support staff, paralegals, etc will do all the work and you better used to giving credit to other people if you want to succeed in the legal profession.

Your clients will want to credit, your paralegals, secretaries, etc will want praise.  Your the lawyer getting paid the most and that is your "spotlight" being responsible means being nice to people.  If your staff, judicial clerks, etc don't like you or you don't think they deserve credit your legal career won't go very far. 

People can give you a break or make your life difficult.  In law school you can be an ass, but piss off your secretary, or the file clerk, or clients tell us how it goes.

Most people do not have 8 hour commutes, truck drivers do so yes you are correct I overstated and some people can, but I don't know if most do an 8 hour commute.

I have never done an eight hour commute for any legal work. Once in a blue moon I have to go from San Francisco to Federal Court in Sacramento, which is a 1.5-2 hours one way and a 4 hour round trip. Those days are miserable and I have done other work on those, days but I am operating at low levels.  I could technically get to NYC in 8 hours with the time difference from Cali if I left right now, but I would be drained and so would anyone else.

Maybe when you do an 8 hour commute you can say it isn't so bad, but I am not sure if your a law student or lawyer. However, if either your law school or office said at least 4 or 5 times a month and probably you will need to make an eight hour round-trip you might be a little upset. You might even change jobs or transfer schools.

She got the ball rolling, found the clients, found the issue, then handed it off to a lawyer.

Part of real practice is finding clients etc.

You can answer multiple choice questions in your law office all day and have an encyclopedic knowledge of every local, state, and federal statute and applicable caselaw. If you don't have any clients then it will not be used.

She did the legwork and the lawyers did the legalwork.

For most lawyers the legwork is the hard part.

I love going to court, arguing motions, etc.

I hate talking to clients, determining what they are or are not telling me, making sure payments come on time, blah blah that part sucks.

Erin did that and got the ball rolling. So she did something.

Erin Brokovich protected people and did not exploit her child on national television so a bit of difference. Personally, now I like her story and pushing the envelope is what lawyers are supposed to do, but not enough do.  Instead, it is up to people like Erin Brokovich, Gidieon (see gidieon v. wainwright), and countless others that have to fight for themselves, because lawyers are to scared to make a profit than to fight for what is right.  Once the wheels get going then a lawyer will come in, but in short now I am glad that she pushed the envelope I respect anyone who doesn't just sit around and moan about it being unfair.

Or maybe OP will whoop both of our asses in court.

Plenty of people do well from various law schools, plenty do terribly from great law schools, so on and so on. A non-aba school is not ideal.

You also don't know what the class schedule is or what days they have to be there.

Essentially, you don't know anything about her life.

What if you got offered a job in South Dakota for $250,000? Would you take it?  I would not, but perhaps you would, maybe OP would. It is a chance that many people would jump at, others would not even consider, etc.

Basically everyone wants different things and has different priorities.

You cannot possibly know what is best for OP and she couldn't call you an idiot for not taking the $250,000 job in South Dakota. 

Everyone considering any law school needs to consider what is best for them, because each person's story is unique.

Is an ABA school better than a non-aba school? Yes.
Is Harvard a better ABA school than University of San Francisco? Yes.
Should someone uproot their whole life to attend an ABA school or Harvard instead of a non-aba school or less elite ABA school the right decision? It depends. (For some absolutely, others absolutely not, and others have a cost/benefit analysis.

Is making $250,000 better than making $125,000? Yes
Should someone uproot their entire life to double their salary? For some absolutely, for others absolutely not, and others a detailed cost/benefit analysis most ensue.

You don't know OP and she doesn't know you. She is aware that her current school is not ABA approved, she would obviously love it to be, but sometimes you have to compromise in fact most times you do.

The fact is you don't know how many days it will be and 4 hours one way is 8 hours total. That is ridiculous nobody can do that.

OP can try to get licensed through an online school maybe even through the hybrid program.

It is not an easy road.

OP should contact the state bar they are in and see what alternatives they offer. Maybe if you are in South Dakota a state so desperate for lawyers they are paying them to come there the South Dakota Bar might let you sit for the exam if you pass the California FYLSE . Crazier things have happened.

OP acknowledges it is a hard road, but an eight hour commute in a day is not sustainable even in a week.

It is unfortunate that certain areas of the country are not adequately represented.

Alaska does not even have a law school, South Dakota and North Dakota have one, Montana has one, Idaho has one, so on and so on. For people living in non-metropolitan areas that want to obtain a legal education are at a severe disadvantage.

I route for anyone like OP to challenge the system and find ways around it. Whether they succeed or not that is another story, but you can certainly try.

Driving four hours a day one way i.e. eight hours is a big deal.

Particularly when dealing with law school.

Commuting sucks  and 4 hours one way is miserable.

As to the OP's question William & Mitchell an ABA Law School has been approved for tentative online law school.

Your situation is a problem with legal education that many 22-25 year old with no family, career, etc cannot grasp. However, this is why pursuing education early in life is ideal, but not everyone does everything perfectly or knows what they want.

There are countless areas  in the U.S. that are completely unrepresented by lawyers and states like South Dakota are paying lawyers to move there.

So there are options, but states can impose rules on their licensing requirements, but attorneys that have passed the bar from a non-aba school and wanted to practice in another state have typically won approval to take the exam. This is a huge hurdle for anyone, but it has been done.

Good luck to you.

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