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M / Re: Monterey College of Law
« on: March 09, 2014, 01:06:16 PM »
Excellent research by Bobol and response by CA Law Dean.

I think CA Law Dean makes an excellent point regarding stats, which I have seen in my own personal experience in law school and the bar exam. Granted 0 for 11 is not impressive, but the reality is life happens during the bar exam. I know people in my class didn't pass for reasons completely unrelated to my school. One student was diagnosed with cancer two weeks before the bar exam and the other's father died in a car crash three weeks before.

Both students ended up taking the exam, but understandably had other issues on their mind and were not successful on their first attempt. In some positive news both ended up passing the exam and the cancer is in remission both of those people are employed as lawyers now, but under the "stats" they were unsuccessful on the bar exam. What my law school could have done or what those students could have done differently in those situations is beyond me.

My understanding of Monterrey College of Law is that it is a part-time program and the majority of students are not the typical 25-26 year old recent graduate whose only responsibility is passing the bar exam. I imagine many of families, careers, etc that they must balance. This is why for the most part I am against part-time law school, because handling additional responsibilities while managing law school rarely works out, but it can for the right person.

One other factor is that whether you pass the bar exam or not has a lot to do with the individual. I knew some other students in my class that did not pass simply because they did not put in the effort or did not take the exam as seriously as it needed to be taken. A law school cannot control a law student's behavior if they want to go out and party every night neither Monterrey College of Law or Harvard Law can stop the student.

At the end of the day I understand 0 for 11 is not going to be on the Monterrey College of Law brochure ,but the graduates made a decision to attend law school. These 11 graduates choose to attend law school and if they did not understand the bar exam would be extremely difficult they did not do their research.  There are Monterrey Grads who have passed the bar it has happened and will happen again, but any law graduate whether from Harvard or Monterrey has to pass the bar exam and whether student does or not is a personal accomplishment, and has little to do with the school they attended.

I do think this was an interesting topic for discussion and I think it is great CA Law Dean is so open to discussing his school in this forum.

Studying and Exam Taking / Re: Reversionary interest
« on: March 05, 2014, 10:43:18 AM »
I am assuming the context is that this is a will or trust and someone has passed away.

I believe the language means that if the deceased/dead owner was leasing the property the lease is still valid, but if nobody is leasing the only way to obtain the property is buy purchasing it, but you have to prove you have the right to buy the property

If this is a real legal issue talk to an attorney in person advice from anonymous Internet posters like myself should be taken with a grain of salt. Good places to look for attorneys are your state bar association, county bar association, or sites like

Agree 100% why not at least try and open your firm. If you continue volunteering 50 Hours a week you will never get out of the situation you are in.

Maybe volunteer one day a week, but your working more than most people who are getting paid full salaries/benefits etc are.

I truly think the reason you are struggling is that your volunteering and has nothing to do with the legal market. Maybe I am wrong, but it sounds like what you are doing is not working so change it.

There are plenty of opportunities for family law attorneys. Join your local bar association for referrals, sign up on sites like, and go to your school's career service website to learn how to open a firm.

There are also sites that can help you figure out how to start a firm. If Family Law is really what you want it lends itself easily to solo practitioners.

Again, I really wish the best for you, but if you want this situation to change you got to make it happen. Volunteering 50 hours a week is not going to lead you to what you want

Good luck.

If you want to actually get paid as lawyer get used to insensitive and condescinding comments. The world is tough and if your going to let a anonymous Internet poster get under your skin then you need to get tougher.

I honestly hope you succeed and one thing to do ASAP is not continue volunteering your time. If your spending 50 hours a week volunteering that means your not applying to any jobs.

I have a number of unpaid interns work for me and they do a good job, but if they are willing to work for free then my agency doesn't bother paying them.

You should leave your volunteer job on good terms and spend 50 hours a week applying to actual jobs or starting your own firm.

You were intelligent enough to graduate law school and pass the bar, which means you are certainly capable of succeding, but you have to respect your time and not volunteer 50 hours a week.

Again, I honestly hope you succeed it is tough to make it in the legal profession and you have to use your time wisely.

Good luck in your future endeavors and again the BYU intercollegiate job bank is a great place to look.

Non-Traditional Students / Re: What are my chances?
« on: March 03, 2014, 01:16:56 AM »
I think before you start thinking about law schools or anything of that nature you need a real LSAT score. Practice is just practice and until the real score comes in you don't know your options. It is certainly exciting to speculate on where you might get in I know I did that plenty as a 0L, but other than for purposes of distraction and to keep excitement there is really no point to speculating what schools you can attend without a real LSAT score.

As to your schools something to consider if your 45 is looking at some of the lower ranked schools that can offer you scholarships. It is not right, but if your 45 you will not be a licensed lawyer until you are 49-50 and it is unlikely a big firm is going to hire you at that age. You can currently succeed as an attorney in a solo or small firm setting and you can do that from schools like Southwestern, Chapman, La Verne, etc and possibly get scholarship money. Opposed to racking up $200,000 in loans at Pepperdine, Santa Clara, etc.

You may also want to consider the California Bar Accredited Schools, which are more geared to someone in your situation and can allow you to work, keep costs down, etc. In my personal opinion the three solid CBA schools are Monterey College of Law, Cal Northern, and Santa Barbara College of law. There are a few others, but I know a number of practicing attorneys from those three schools.

With a 2.8 GPA and a real LSAT score above 150 you will have some law school options. However, with your age you do need to realize there will be some doors closed and less time to make up your educational investment. If everything goes great and you graduate pass the bar first time around you will be 49-50 and have at most 20 working years left to recoup your $100,000+ investment.

Most recent law grads are between 25-30 and have 40-45 working years ahead so the cost is not as sensitive since there is so much more time.

Good luck on your law school journey it can be a very rewarding career.

Where should I go next fall? / Re: I need some help deciding
« on: March 02, 2014, 01:54:11 PM »
First congrats on your acceptances it is nice to have choices. As to your question I think any incoming law student should consider the following five factors in this order when choosing a law school.
 (1) Location
(2) Cost
(3) Personal Feeling about School (
4) Understanding the Reality of Legal Education
 (5) Last and Least U.S. News Rankings.

I will analyze why each of these factors are important below, but do remember anyone on this board or others myself included are nothing more than anonymous internet posters that know nothing about you, you personal situation, or what is best for you so take it all with a grain of salt.

Factors to Consider

It is important does not exist in a vacuum and you are going to spend a minimum of three years of the prime your life in the location you attend law school. On top of that where you end up going is likely where you will end up if you go to law school in South Carolina you will likely take the South Carolina Bar. Additionally ,you are going to make friends, possible get into a romantic relationship, have an apartment, etc and you will build a place for yourself over three years that will be hard to leave. Therefore, if you cannot stand a City/State do not attend school there because you will spend three years and moving from the state/city after school will be difficult.

You should also consider your own personality and personal situation. If your from Philadalphia will you be comfortable away from your family in South Carolina? Have you left home before? A myriad of things to consider it is nice to have people around outside of law school that can support you, but if you have a personality that can easily adapt to a new environment it will not be a big deal, but only you know that about yourself.

I knew a number of people in law school that came from out of state and some adapted great others grew very homesick.

Bottom line location is very important and Oklahoma City, Jacksonville, Philadelphia and D.C. are all very different places.

2) Cost
I see you have a number of scholarship offers, which is awesome, but two things to look at are (1) What are the actual tuition costs and (2) What conditions do you need to meet to retain your scholarship.

As for number South Carolina is only $21,000 per year if your a resident, but 42,000 per year for a non-resident. You should find out what is necessary to retain residency because $21,000 per year is actually cheaper than Oklahoma City with a scholarship.

Look up the actual tuition of each school here

Conditions are also important to understand typically a school will require you to maintain a 3.0 to keep your scholarship or rank in the top 35% or something like that. As an incoming law student you likely got a 3.0 without trying in undergrad or are certain you will easily finish in the top 35%.

However, law school is very different everyone is smart, hard, motivated, and truly believes they will finish in the top 10%, but you do not need to be a math major to see 90% of them will be wrong. Also law school is graded on a curve and typically only 35% of first year students can have a 3.0 GPA, which means there is a 65% chance in that situation you will not keep your scholarship for years 2 and 3.

This New York Times Article does a better job explaining the system than I can

With that remember you can negotiate for more money, better scholarship conditions, etc remember law school is a business and your a customer. Get the best deal you can.

3) Personal Feelings About School
It is very important to visit the schools talk to professor, admin, students, get a feel for the campus, and surrounding area and see if it is a fit for you. When I was a 0L I visited a number of schools some I liked others I hated. Once I was in law school I participated in a number of mock trial competitions and visited and interacted with more schools. Again, some I liked others I hated, but you may love the places I hated and hate the places I loved.

How you personally about a school is something only you can answer so visit the schools and see what feels right. I am sure some of these schools will rub you the wrong way and others will feel right it is important to listen to those gut feelings.

4) Reality of Legal Education
It is important to realize legal education is the same at any ABA school. Your first year will consist of Torts, Contracts, Property, Civil Procedure and you will read Supreme Court Cases. The Supreme Court doesn't write separate opinions for different schools and for all intents and purposes you literally learn the same thing at every school. There are a few electives that might be different and a few state laws that differ, but BarBri and Kaplan the bar prep companies you will inevitably pay to prepare you for the bar accept anyone from an ABA school and then you learn the law of "X" state you are preparing for.

5) U.S. New Ranking
Remember U.S. News is a for profit, unregulated magazine, offering an opinion. Nothing more nothing less and this should not be the basis of a 3 year and $100,000+ commitment. Maybe if you were considering Harvard v. South Carolina the rankings might matter, but realistically all the schools are fine, but nobody is going to say wow a Catholic/South Carolina/Widener/ etc grad hire him ASAP.

It is important to realize whether you succeed in the legal profession will have a lot more to do with your drive, work ethic, and ability to get things done than the school you attend.

There is no "right" answer as to what law school to attend, but you should visit each school and determine where you want to live. Also evaluate the costs and scholarship conditions to get out with as little debt as possible.

Congrats again your acceptances and good luck as you pursue a legal career.

Could not agree more it is not a profession you should do because you care about the Client, making a difference, etc if money is main goal, which there is nothing wrong with that then you probably will not enjoy your legal career. There are a frankly much better ways to make money than going to law school, but the knowledge, power, and ability to change things with a law degree is priceless if you really want to be a lawyer.

Law School Applications / Re: My Chances w/ Georgetown? Any advice?
« on: February 28, 2014, 01:47:58 AM »
Georgetown is a great school and I sincerely hope you get a 173 LSAT, but a practice LSAT is practice. I know many people in your position myself included as 0L get ahead of themselves and start thinking about the school they will attend etc. It is kind of exciting.

However, realistically what should focus on is getting an LSAT score once you have a real LSAT score and your GPA is officially done you will know your options. If you get a 173 LSAT and have a 3.81 GPA your chances are solid and just an FYI is a great site to see what numbers will get you into what school.

With all that said something to really understand is that any ABA law school will teach you the law and give you the skills to become a successful lawyer. It is true schools like Georgetown, Harvard, Yale etc will open the door to Biglaw, but I know a number of Harvard grads who worked at Biglaw hated it and went on to work at a D.A., Public Defender, City Attorney etc where you don't need the Harvard Degree to work, but they have a lot more debt.

A lot of incoming and current law students get very racked up in the rankings and attending the "highest ranked" school, but the reality is no matter what school you attend you will read Supreme Court cases and learn the same thing the law is the law period. The Supreme Court does not write separate opinions for different law schools.

Anyways, just focus on getting your LSAT score then you can know your options. Once you have the score think about the location you want to attend school, consider the tuition costs, and visit schools to see, which one is a fit for you. When I was choosing I visited a number of schools some were great to me others sucked, but that was my personal opinion you could very well love the schools I hated and vice versa.

Good luck on the LSAT and your pursuit of a legal career.

These outrageous tuition rates are not limited to law school. Education everywhere has become so overpriced it's ridiculous, I think the ease with which Federal Student  Loan money is handed out is creating the problem. Schools are just doing what they can nothing wrong or even immoral about it. Every school and institution anywhere can stand to have more money so why not raise tuition rates if money will just be handed to the students.

Well plenty of people have found legal work and sorry things aren't being handed to you.

You can use the BYU Intercollegiate job bank, which is a great source to find legal work across America.

Username jobfind
password cougarjobs

As for graduating from a Tier 1 school that really doesn't mean anything no school anywhere guarantees you a job. You have to show why you are valuable to get hired the legal profession is not a charity.

Go out there and make it happen. People like Belva Ann Lockwood the first woman lawyer and Macon Boling Allen the first black lawyer overcome a hell of a lot more obstacles than your dealing with.

About 5.9 Billion in this world would trade places with you right now, and whether you succeed has a lot more to do with you than the legal profession or the law school you attended. If you want to blame society, the legal profession, your law school, etc go ahead, but plenty of recent grads are doing fine, but they put in the work and deal with plenty of rejection.

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