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Messages - Citylaw

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News Discussion / Re: POTUS
« on: November 17, 2015, 11:52:19 AM »
Out of curiosity of all the political misconduct, tragedy, and issues in the world today why so much focus on Hilary?

I don't particular like her myself and I don't plan on voting for her, but I don't think she is satan reincarnated either.

So I'm just curious what is about her with all the various issues going on that makes you so upset by her. More power to you for exercising your right to free speech, but I personally find it fascinating when people get so worked up about a presidential candidate, and am curious about what drives you on the issue.

I personally don't like Hilary much either, but of all the issues in the world her screw ups are not that high on my list.

Meta Discussion / Re: Something Is Different....
« on: November 05, 2015, 08:56:11 PM »
I know not sure if I like it or not yet.

Probably good to make some change to teh board I don't think anything has been done since I was applying to school nearly a decade ago.

Yea UCLA & USC are definitely top dogs in L.A. and frankly schools with nationwide reputations.

If you could have UCLA v. Pepperdine for the same costs etc then take UCLA, but I don't even know if UCLA is a top-top school.

I recommend to the OP watch the documentary movie lawyer walks into a bar. It follows six or seven recent law grads dealing with taking the bar exam.

Some people are really annoying, others are cool and they are from various schools and the ones that are successful aren't surprising once you get an insight into their personality, vs the ones that are not successful.

Well first and foremost realize anything I or anyone says on this board or others is nothing more than an anonymous internet poster and for all you know I could be a crackhead in the public library or a Supreme Court Justice, along with anyone else posting. So take anything you read on the internet with a major grain of salt.

With that intro I am an attorney with a bit of experience, but again I could be making it all up.

Reading your post I see several common mistakes in your logic, which I myself had as a OL.

First and foremost congrats on actually taking the LSAT and getting a respectable score. A 159 is pretty good, it puts you in about the top 25% of college graduates that were smart and hard working enough to take the LSAT. It is accomplishment although naysayers on the internet for all intents and purposes probably never took the LSAT will tell you anyone can get a 180, but obviously 99% of people don't score in the top 1% of test takers.

Next as to your 165 on practice tests, that is all well and good, but practice and the real thing are different. Most people score a little lower on the real thing. I pulled a few low 160's and high 150's and ended up with a 155. Nothing to write home about, but enough to get me into an ABA law school, take the bar and be one of the only 305,000 people in the past 90 years to be licensed to practice law in California. (Totally random sidenote the Bar is up to 305000 that is highest bar number right now.) There is no harm in retaking it, but odds are you still probably score a 159 again give or take maybe a 157 maybe a 161. As far as I know schools no longer average LSAT scores so you have nothing to lose by applying to schools and taken the December LSAT. However, if UCLA is your dream school check with them and make sure that is the case. The UCLA Law School Admissions Department, knows a lot more about UCLA's admission policies than I or anyone else on the internet does.

I also you think you will be in the top 5% at Pepperdine, but again the reality check has to come and it is important to realize at any ABA school student are very smart, hard-working and motivated and everyone assumes they will be in the top 10% or 5% and they only reason that are at X school, because the LSAT wasn't a fair metric of their intelligence and they should have been able to get into a "better" school, but certainly at this "lower" school they will excel. Again, these are all very smart people, but during 1L their math skills seem to trail off, because if 100% of people think they are going to be in the top 10% then 90% are wrong.  This is nothing against you, because I have never met you, but there is a 95% chance you will not finish at the top 5% at Pepperdine or any law school you attend. There is 5% chance you will finish in the top 5%, but I and any logical person would bet against you being in the top 5%.

If you don't finish in the top 5% at Pepperdine or you doomed to giving out handj**bs on the Street? Uh. No.

If you graduate from an ABA Law School, Pass the Bar and are remotely competent and responsible there are jobs for you out there. Your first job is unlikely to be ridiculously high-paying, glamorous, etc and you will have to work to get your first job and suffer some rejection, but you will get a job if you graduate from Pepperdine, pass the bar and don't develop a heroin addiction. Furthermore, this job search is likely to be the same from UCLA.  Getting your first job out of law school sucks, and frankly getting your first job out of school in any profession is difficult, law is no different in fact it is probably a little easier, because you are either a licensed attorney or you are not, which means there are only about 100,000 in the entire state capable of filing an attorney job. However, law students typically aren't used to getting rejected and when it happens they rant on internet boards about how unfair everything is.  Lawyers are typically opinionated and complain more than most other professions, after all their job is mostly filing Complaints and responding to Complaints

As for the money this is important to consider as are the scholarship conditions. Frankly, if you want to be in L.A. and Southwestern or Chapman offer you full scholarships I would take that over Pepperdine or UCLA. Law School debt is real and the less of it you have the more options, you have.  However, check the SCHOLARSHIP CONDITIONS. They typically require you to maintain 3.0 GPA to keep, but in your 0L head like everyone else of course you will get a 3.0 at the "lower" school. I mean your going to be in the top 5% after all if not Valedictorian, because you are special. (This is what I myself thought). However, getting a 3.0 in law school is difficult, because of the curve and at most schools only 33% of students can have a 3.0 at the end of the first semester. This means there is a 67% chance you are losing your scholarship 2L and 3L. Again, nothing against you just the reality.

If I were you, which I am not it sounds like you want to be in L.A.. Therefore, apply to all the So-Cal Schools Chapman, LMU, Pepperdine, UCLA, USC, Southwestern, La Verne throw in University of San Diego, Cal-Western and Thomas Jefferson and I might be missing a few, but apply to them all with your current numbers. Retake the LSAT and if you get a 172 then maybe UCLA will come through, hell maybe you should hold off and apply to Harvard and Yale, but odds are you will get a similar score and you will get accepted to most of those schools some with scholarship money and some with substantial scholarship money.

Once, you have your acceptances go visit the schools see how you like it. Although, each school will literally teach you the same thing, because ABA schools require each ABA school to follow a specific curriculum and (believe it or not the law does not change whether you went to UCLA or La Verne). Walk into a courtroom anywhere and see how many times an attorney says what school they went to. For all intents and purposes court is about you present yourself, today in court I saw a lawyer with a suit two sizes to big that was rambling on about god knows what. He could have gone to Harvard for all I know, but he looked like an idiot and the court sanctioned him for not following the rules of court in his filings.  I didn't know this either, but in California you need to file a specific judicial council form (Notice of Related Case) if you have other litigation. This guy had filed multiple lawsuits for one guy, but didn't file the Notice of Related Case $300 Sanction. I have no idea what school the lawyer went to nor does it matter, the Judge was pissed. What school did the judge go to? No idea, believe it or not it didn't come up, nor does it ever.

If you don't follow the rules of court do you think the Judge will say oh will I see you went to UCLA say you are excused, but opposing Counsel went to Pepperdine therefore he has to follow the much more detailed California Rules of Court. That is not what happens, but back in my OL and even while in the law school bubble I thought your school meant so much, but it doesn't.

I don't know anything about you and couldn't possibly tell you what the best decision for YOU is.  From your post you sound like the common OL, which I myself was and think this whole big world of rankings, schools, etc exists, but the legal system is far from perfect. Once you get through law school and pull off the curtain you will feel like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz.

I personally love being a lawyer, but can't believe how much time and energy and bad decisions regarding what "school" to attend and what a for profit unregulated magazine known as "U.S. News" thought.  Here is a hypo if U.S. News told you that New Mexico was the #1 place to live would you pack up and move there? I assume you would not. However, if U.S. News said Pepperdine was the #1 school you would probably choose it over UCLA? Right.

Well U.S. News did rank New Mexico as the #1 Place to Live. . Should you apply to University of New Mexico Law? Should you just give up law all together, to get to New Mexico? No, it would be crazy to make a life altering decision based on a magazine's opinion.

However, law students with the same illogical thinking of they will certainly be in the top 5%, clearly the LSAT was a fluke and they should have scored in the top 10% of test takers,  and anyone that had enough great breaks in their life to attend law school will be unable to find a job when they obtain a license that only a few hundred thousand people in the history of California have ever obtained. This same logic is used when making a life altering decision based on a magazine.

So, use your common sense and this article might also be helpful when choosing a law school.

Again, you should be proud of a 159 and having the opportunity to attend law school. It can be a very rewarding profession and I wish you the best of luck.

End of Rant.



Law School Applications / Re: Cancer: Will it Affect Their Decision?
« on: November 04, 2015, 03:08:39 PM »
Of course and I assumed battling cancer was in the statement, I would put it in.

I know a few people that were diagnosed with cancer while in law school and went on to beat it and are practicing law as we speak.

Additionally, law school admissions is really all about numbers to be perfectly honest. I am not sure if cancer one way or the other will do do much to hurt or harm your application. Your UGPA and LSAT make up 90% - 95% of the decision.

If you have a 4.0 and 180 and have all kinds of ailments your getting into basically every school. You can be in the greatest health of anyone ever and with a 2.0 and 139 LSAT your not getting in anywhere.

Obviously, cancer will impact your life and your law school experience, which sucks, but I don't think it will do much in the way of an admissions decison.

Law School Applications / Re: Cancer: Will it Affect Their Decision?
« on: November 04, 2015, 12:37:36 PM »
First off happy to hear you are in recovery and it is unfortunate you have to deal with such a terrifying and terrible disease, but it sounds like you are doing well, which is great.

With that intro I don't think your medical records have any relevance or needs to be disclosed in your application.  All they are looking for is GPA and LSAT whether you have Cancer or any other disease is none of their business, unless you want them to know.

Furthermore, I don't see why cancer would hurt your application. I think it would probably help it actually, as it gives you a unique perspective on life.

At my school a severely physically disabled student was admitted. I won't disclose the disease, but it did not alter (their mental state) however, they were severely disabled upon admission to school. The student went on to graduate and pass the bar, but passed away shortly after.

It was an inspiring and sad story at the same-time. It was the students goal to become an attorney and once that disease came they changed their life around to get through law school and pass the bar.  It put things in perspective for me at least and I think many other law students.

So apply to law school and don't let cancer stop you and I don't see why a law school would deny you the opportunity.

Good luck with everything.

Wake Forest U / Re: Any "Wake Forest" around?
« on: November 02, 2015, 07:15:37 PM »
Not sure if any Wake Forest Alum are on this board, but if you have any questions about law school in general there are some good posters here.

Law School Applications / Re: How competitive am I? Solid soft factors.
« on: November 02, 2015, 06:58:51 PM »
Military Service is always a plus, but you are missing one key factor that matters more than anything an LSAT score.

A 2.7 GPA is not great, but there have been plenty of law students with worse GPA's that have gone on to have great legal careers, but if you have a 2.7 GPA and 141 LSAT I don't know if any school would accept you. A 2.7 GPA and a 155 LSAT there are definitely some schools that would expect you. 2.7 and 160 plenty of schools that would accept you. 2.7 and a 180 on the LSAT you might be looking at Harvard and Yale.

If you have an LSAT score then your options can be looked at by a quick visit to or a quick look at the LSAC law school predictor, which is the official site.

However, until you have an LSAT score no ABA school would accept you even with a 4.0 and winning multiple medals of honor in the Air Force. The LSAT is pretty much the end all be all of law school and it is important to remember that law school is all about standardized testing, because eventually you will need to take a Bar Exam to become licensed to practice law so standardized tests are part of the process.

Being an officer in the Air Force is a great soft factor, but soft factors very little of the decision they are more less tie breakers for students with comparable GPA/LSAT scores.

The master's GPA are great, but also don't help much either.

So for now take the LSAT and then you can know what your options are.

Additionally, here is a good article about how to choose a law school.

Good luck in your legal career and thanks for your service.

LSAC and LSDAS / Re: Admissions Index - Auto Matrix
« on: November 02, 2015, 01:32:09 PM »
Not sure if the admissions index really makes much difference, there are numerous sites that can predict your likelihood of acceptance at a particular school; the site Miami mentions works as does and of course LSAC itself provides the best guide

Good luck with the application process and feel free to use this board to ask any questions. There are not a lot of posters on here, but everyone that regularly posts here has gone to law school and offers solid advice.

This is also a pretty good article about how to choose a law school.


Well this has gotten productive. (See Section 5 of the article)

This board is cool, because for the few people that come there is actual advice etc, unlike Top Law Schools where anonymous internet posters get in pi**sing contest with each other. 

The OP had a legit question and received solid advice, but someone this thread has devolved into that.

I am a little embarrassed at how much time I spend on this board personally, but it is enjoyable, however fighting anonymously with someone on the internet that you will never meet or know, or possibly win the argument doesn't make a ton of sense.

Keep it classy LSD.

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