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Messages - NYC2L

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This type of logic bothers me, as an engineer by trade.  Sorry to nitpick, but you'd only have 10% chance if the class rank was determined randomly (i.e. not due to any other factors).  I'm not saying that everyone who predicts to be in the top 10% will be, or even have a better chance to be.  But just that the statement is factually incorrect, because the class rank is determined through factors such as hard work and test taking ability in addition to the obvious luck.

You are missing the meta-point. While you are correct that other factors go into law school success, it is impossible to predict who will utilize those factors most optimally. For example, if 10 people enter law school X with scores in a similar range (as is the case with the majority of students at a given school), each student has an equal chance at each spot between 1st and 10th. Although post hoc, factors such as hard work and test taking ability serve to explain the outcome, predicting how those factors stack up among students prior to their respective performances is incredibly unlikely. Hence, class rank is random and only appears predicable after the fact. Accordingly, each individual has a 10% chance of being in the top 10%.

You need not and should not worry about where to apply until after you receive your spring grades. Every school has, for all intents and purposes, the same transfer requirements: 1-3 letters of rec, personal statement, law school transcript, undergrad transcript and resume. What you should do now is focus entirely on finals. Once they are done, contact some professors and ask for letters, contact your undergrad, etc. Deadlines do not begin until mid-June and many are not until mid-July. When you receive your grades you can then determine where to apply.

If you finish top 1-5%, transferring is easily worth it because you have a good shot at the T14, top 5-10% and you have a shot at T25, any lower than that and you have to consider the value of transferring, like Bulldog86 said, to other regional schools. Notwithstanding your class rank, you can still send out applications to any schools you want. Besides the application fee, no harm can come from that.

Check out It is a useful resource for transfers.

Job Search / Re: 0L Please Help
« on: April 25, 2008, 12:56:10 PM »
Sorry for the barrage of information. The fact of the matter is that there is no consensus for what supplemental materials should be used--if any. Personally, I found E&E helpful for civ pro, torts and contracts, others, like YellowBrickRoad, recommend something called CALI (which I am not familiar with) and do not particularly value E&E. I did not use commercial outlines because I preferred briefing cases myself. I felt that it forced me to understand the cases individually. But I know plenty of people who swear by them. Similarly, even if you use E&Es or Gilberts, don't use them as a crutch. They're called supplements for a reason.

Also, I would suggest that you not overload on supplements at the beginning. You will already have enough reading to do. After a month or so, evaluate your understanding of the material. If you feel that your understanding is lacking, purchase one supplement for each class. Again, E&E's were my preference but that perspective is far from ubiquitous.

Finally, to reiterate, relax over the summer. Read the relevant parts of LSC. The book covers all three years and I don't recommend jumping ahead--it caused me a lot of anxiety.

Transferring / Re: Should I transfer?
« on: April 24, 2008, 11:49:32 PM »
I was in a similar situation last year and decided to transfer. Even if you are not sure, there is no harm in applying. Then if you get in to one or more of the schools you would be interested in attending, you can evaluate your options from there.

As for the risk, it is true that you could do significantly worse after the transfer. However, it is also possible that you may do worse during the current semester. Granted, your rank probably will not drop that much but even a slight drop could pull you out of the range that you say is necessary to secure a clerkship.

Also important, you would not be totally screwed with regards to big law if your grades fell post-transfer. Why? Firms do their hiring completely off your 1st year grades. Hence, assuming your grades are high enough to transfer, you will retain spectacular employment options. Clerkships are another matter because you apply after your 2nd year. Thus, if you did a lot worse, you would be cut off from top clerkships and, of course, academia.

My experience with the 40-odd transfers at my school, is that no one regrets their decision. In the end, my advice is to apply and see what happens. There is no risk in that.

Good luck with your decision.

Job Search / Re: 0L Please Help
« on: April 24, 2008, 10:32:18 PM »
I did some quick google searches (I'm board) and it seems like "supplement" is the most common term used to describe the E&E series. And, according to Wikipedia, "in United States Law, a hornbook is a text that gives an overview of a particular area of law." That seems to comport with withthemanwithnoname viewpoint. I'll leave it at that. I also agree that one must not overuse supplements nor use them as replacements.

Job Search / Re: 0L Please Help
« on: April 24, 2008, 09:21:43 PM »
I think you are confusing hornbooks with treatises which are "expensive books that trace the history of the law and cases in more depth." I have never heard the term primer (probably a regional thing) but it can assuredly be used interchangeably with hornbook.

In an effort not to confuse the OP with semantics: E&E (includes Glannon), Gilbert, Westlaw, etc., are overviews and analyzes of relevant legal issues and case law. E&E, Gilbert and others pose questions after each section that I recommend answering as a supplement to other studying.  Commercial outlines are briefs of cases and "nitty-gritty black letter law" as it relates to each case. As thorac954 said, "don't buy these in advance." And, if you do buy them, I don't recommend getting more than 1 for each class. Otherwise, it is just too much material.

Job Search / Re: Job search answers from NYU 3L
« on: April 24, 2008, 07:53:59 PM »
Agreed. Also, it is common knowledge that NYU law students have huge penises.

Job Search / Re: 0L Please Help
« on: April 24, 2008, 04:08:51 PM »
1. A hornbook and a commercial outline are practically the same thing. I think people often use the terms interchangeably. However, I would describe a hornbook as an overview of the course; while a commercial outline focuses on cases.

3. The best hornbook is Examples and Explanations by Glannon. It is for civil procedure. The same company produces hornbooks for other classes and I will vouch for their Contracts and Torts hornbook. Personally, I did not like their property one. Beyond that, hornbooks are very similar and it probably doesn't matter which brand you use.

4. Don't rely on hornbooks or commercial outlines. Brief cases and make your own outlines. Also, I highly recommend reading Law School Confidential. It really helped me hit the ground running. Attend every class and read every case twice. The second time through I highly recommend making notes in the margins and highlighting key phrases. Finally, besides reading LSC, don't try to get ahead over the summer. Relax. It will be your last opportunity to do that for three years.

I can't say this will work for everyone but it enabled me to transfer from a T25 to a T5.

Good luck.
Good luck with 

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: NYU 3L taking questions
« on: April 22, 2008, 07:32:10 PM »
To rosetta,

Approximately Top 10-15% from T25; Top 5-10% from T1; Top 1-5% thereafter.
Check out for useful information.

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