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Messages - jack24

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141
I graduated from a solid T2 with no job, but I had multiple offers by the time I was licensed.
It took a lot of work though.  Competition for all jobs, even low paying and government jobs, is absolutely nuts.
It's totally doable from a t2 or worse, but you have to earn it.

142
Current Law Students / Re: My Goal
« on: July 05, 2012, 02:09:24 PM »
My goal is to get a second bachelor's degree.  This time in economics.  I have chosen to apply to Boston University.  What are my chances of admittance?  I mean, now I am 29 years old; soon to be 30.  I already have a bachelor's degree from the University of Maine, my GPA was ~3.56; I attended the University of Southern California Law School; I finished fifth in my class in high school; I was in the National Honor Society in high school; then in college I joined Pi Mu Epsilon and Phi Beta Kappa.  Furthermore, since elementary school, I received numerous awards in classes and physical fitness.  In high school, too.  For example, in high school, I received the Daughters of the American Revoultion Good Citizenship award twice, my freshman year and senior year.  I also got the Semper Fidelis award.  And, if I am not mistaken, I had the best grade point average in Spanish II.  And I've held a bunch of jobs over the years, including as an assistant manager at CVS/pharmacy in Boston.  My salary was like 39K annually.  And I sold about $ 2 million of merchandise at a car and truck dealership in North Hollywood California. And, I can play the "Crazy Train" solo!

But I've only had one girlfriend... ;-(

I'm pretty sure all of your posts are part of some parody, but I'm not certain.

143
I have several friends who attended McGeorge and they really loved it.  One even transferred to a higher ranked school after his first year and he felt like McGeorge was superior.

My impression based on hundreds of applications and tens of interviews (I went to a T2) is that employers care less about ranking difference the further out you go.    They may see the difference between 25 and 65 to be huge but I just don't think they would consider the difference between 65 and t3 to be huge.   Local reputation, your rank in the school, and your job experience during law school will be crucial.

All that said, there are always exceptions.  I was in an area with a good T2 (60-80) and a good T3 school nearby.  Nobody seemed to think the T2 offered a better education, but the T2 also had a great university and fantastic sports program.  It's silly, but I think that's why employers strongly favored the T2 school in head-to-head comparisons.   

I just jumped on kmtg.com and looked at their sacramento office.  Their attorney's graduated from:  (14/41  from McGeorge)

UC Davis
UC Davis
UC Davis
UC Davis
McGeorge
Golden Gate
Stanford
Cal Western
Pepperdine
UC Davis
UC Davis
McGeorge
Golden Gate
McGeorge
St. Mary's
Mcgeorge
Hastings
McGeorge
McGeorge
McGeorge
McGeorge
Berkeley
Texas
Hastings
Hastings
Davis
Davis
Hastings
McGeorge
Santa Clara
Berkeley
McGeorge
Davis
McGeorge
Santa Clara
McGeorge
Berkeley
Berkeley
MCgeorge
Mcgeorge
Hastings
McGeorge

144
Online Law Schools / Re: Help me pick an online law school
« on: July 05, 2012, 01:46:17 PM »
Roald and I have gone back and forth about this, but I'm not so sure the quality of the program is the biggest indicator of bar passage.  I think quality of students has a significantly higher impact than the program.

Look at every T2 school in the nation and I bet you get varying bar exam pass rates.  The quality of the program doesn't really change much (it should improve) but bar rates go up and down significantly.

I just looked at one school that went down 18% and then back up 27%.   The overall bar passage in that state moved, but not nearly as much.

I do, however, think that you want to consider your own learning style and find a school that matches it.

145
My impression from schools other than the two you mention is that factors other than LSAT and GPA are only considered in the second round of review.   The school I graduated from, for instance, would do an index that factored only LSAT and GPA (weights: 65% LSAT 35% GPA).  They would automatically drop whoever was below a certain index (except for some URM) and automatically accept those above a certain index.  Then they would take the middle chunk and look for notable things like URM, an engineering degree, NCAA athletics, particular types of hardship. 

I had a strong professional background.  The admissions people told me they didn't even consider that stuff.

I'm not saying it's the same everywhere, but this type of analysis is common.   Lsac gives you close to a 0% chance at UC Davis, so I would guess that you wont' make the first cut and they will never consider your personal statement or resume.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/release/OfficialGuide_Default.aspx

146
Online Law Schools / Re: Help me pick an online law school
« on: July 05, 2012, 08:43:57 AM »
I haven't attended those schools, but I think it would be better for you in the long run to take multiple classes at once.  Even if you can do the same number of credits per year, I don't think one class tunnel vision is the best way to learn. (Or prepare for a bar exam or practice law)

My first semester classes were contracts, civ pro, crim law, property and legal research & writing. (Con law was a second semester class when I started)

The classes aren't interdependent, but they are interrelated.  I think learning them at the same time helps you get a better handle.

I know everyone has different learning styles, but that's just my two cents.   

(What order do ALU and Northwestern teach their classes in?)

147
Online Law Schools / Re: Abraham Lincoln University, School of Law
« on: July 03, 2012, 11:12:46 AM »
The LSAT isn't mastered by many.  Practice courses allow you to develop strategies and help you improve your score to some extent, but it's not as if everyone who works hard and takes a practice course or two gets the score they want.

I'm not saying intelligence is the only factor in determining law school success, but it helps. 
When it comes to law school success, I'd take someone with a fantastic memory, fantastic analytical brain, and decent work ethic over someone with a decent memory, decent analytical brain, and fantastic memory any day of the week.

Work ethic is very important, especially when it comes to being a good lawyer, but there are diminishing returns in law school.  While 80 hours studying for civ pro is far better than 40, 300 hours provides little added benefit over 150 hours.

Law school success depends on your ability to identify the relevant facts, recall and identify all relevant black letter law (with a little dicta) and then apply the law to the facts in a way similar to what your professor would do.

The best lawyers have a good idea of where to find the relevant law, but they have absolute command over the facts.  60% of the job of a litigator deals with facts.  Five percent of your time is spent analyzing the law, and the rest is analysis and personality. 

Law school makes it seem like you are going to spend hours in libraries and online trying to find that one case out there that wins the day.   But in most states, you find the relevant statute, quickly digest the rules in all the cases that cite the statute, and then you try to win the fact war.

My point is that the current model for law schools does a poor job of preparing students to be lawyers.  Yes, it provides valuable training in some areas, but three years are two too many.  The whole "professor interaction" and "feedback" argument simply didn't apply to me.  I found great internships and got legal training on the job.  I learned the material on my own and I did well.  I never reviewed my notes after the first semester and I never read a textbook after the first year (with the exception of tax law classes).  Maybe online education has limits, but B&M education has limits as well.  If the online schools are honest about the bar passage rates and they have qualified professors, I think it's a joke that a graduate can't take the bar exam.  My ABA approved school allowed people to be absentee students.  Nobody cared.





148
Online Law Schools / Re: Abraham Lincoln University, School of Law
« on: July 02, 2012, 05:00:24 PM »
I still can't believe that there is a problem with the model.    If students who did well in undergrad and scored in the top 1/3 on the LSAT went to online school, I"m sure the bar passage would be higher. 

I personally believe that the brick and mortar education I got was horrible.  It was so focused on theory and we wasted an incredible amount of time.  I'm fine with such academic exercises, but three years was too much.  I relocated after graduation, and I would have benefited greatly had I been allowed to relocate during my third year and take online classes to finish up.   It's hard to stay disciplined, but I had trouble with that during law school.  I got an A in media law one semester and I didn't buy the book or take notes.  I spent the whole time writing my law review note.  Maybe I got lucky, maybe the subject clicked, or maybe my studying was just far more efficient.

 Maybe online education isn't the answer, but law school tuition is out of control, and I think it would be terrible if employers and the ABA failed to see it's benefits because online schools are full of poor performers.

149
Online Law Schools / Re: Abraham Lincoln University, School of Law
« on: July 02, 2012, 03:09:32 PM »
I'm sure you are right that there are a combination of factors.  Still, I think there is probably a tipping point somewhere.   I'm sure some candidates simply cannot relocate to attend a T4 school, so they "attend" a distance learning school, but I imagine many of those students at a DL school performed poorly on the LSAT.

It's been a while since I looked, but I think even Cal Western students have an average LSAT of over 150.   In my state, I don't think you have to be that smart to pass the bar, so I can't imagine someone who gets 165 on the LSAT has a much better chance of passing the bar than someone who scored 155.  There must be a tipping point though.

Total assumption here, but in a state with a bar passage rate of 85%, you probably see something like this

170+ =99% pass
165-170 = 92% pass
160-170 = 88%
155-160 = 85%
150-165 =  82%
145-150 = 65%
140-145 = 40 %
Under 140 = 18%

LSAC says that LSAT and UGPA are the strongest indicators of bar performance  http://www.unc.edu/edp/pdf/NLBPS.pdf

150
Online Law Schools / Re: Abraham Lincoln University, School of Law
« on: July 02, 2012, 02:26:29 PM »
A key reason why most FYLSE test takers fail the exam is because they are fooled into thinking that they can absorb a huge amount of information in one year by studying on a part time basis.  The amount of information you need to know to pass takes at least 8 hours a day for the entire year.  The assignments the school gives only scratches the surface of what the student needs to know.  There is nothing wrong with the online law school student.  There is something wrong with the way the whole online law school program is structured.  Let's stop blaming the victim.

Generally speaking, I agree. The model of legal education adopted by the the ABA and CBE schools, is, I think, the bare minimum that most people need in order to adequately prepare for the bar exam. Of course there are always examples of online students who pass the FYLSE and bar on their first attempts, but these numbers are very, very low. Personally, I don't think that there is any substitute for live classroom attendance and participation. I know that many people will disagree, but the statistics speak for themselves.

I've read a lot of commentary that attributes the low FYLSE/bar pass rates of online schools to the fact that online students are usually working full time, have families, etc. Well, students at ABA/CBE accredited part time evening programs are also working full time, have families, etc., and the bar pass rates are much, much higher. I believe that this discrepancy has to do less with the students, as you've said, and more to do with the format.

While I don't think LSAT scores and undergrad GPA are perfect indicators of intelligence and work ethic, I do think they are strongly correlated with intelligence and work ethic.  If you took Yale's incoming class and put them through school at ALUSL, I imagine nearly all would pass the baby bar.

Generally speaking, if you score below a certain number on the LSAT you will struggle with law school and bar testing. 

 alu.edu states that only 10 out of 70 of their bar takers passed in june of 2011, and I imagine that result has more to do with student quality than quality of education.  Law school tests and bar exams test a specific and narrow type of intelligence.


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