Law School Discussion

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Messages - jack24

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141
Pre-Law in high school / Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
« on: July 12, 2012, 10:50:13 AM »
I agree that this outlook is refreshing.   But let's crunch the numbers.

Consider $125,000 in loans, payable over 25 years at 7.2 percent.

$125,000 in principal
$144,845 in interest
$120,000 in opportunity cost (From not working those three years of law school)

That works out to $15,593 per year for 25 years.   To break even, you have to average $15,593 more annual NET INCOME per year for 25 years.

Who knows how much you would have made without law school... but it's plausible, maybe probable, that a legal education will pay off by the 25 year mark for the median law student out there.

The BLS says the median pay for lawyers (not starting salary) in 2010 was $112,760.  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Legal/Lawyers.htm
sales managers in 2010 was $98,530.  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/sales-managers.htm
computer systems analyst in 2010 was $77,740  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-systems-analysts.htm
Network Administrator: $69,160  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Network-and-computer-systems-administrators.htm
Here's a list of some other business field careers and their medians.  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/sales-managers.htm#tab-7

A legal career pays off against almost all of those careers (for the median person).

I think it's a good investment in the long run for most people,  but:

1: A lot of people are below the median.  And a large portion (impossible to know how large) won't make enough money for it to be worth it.  However, maybe they would have sucked at everything else.
2: Law school doesn't teach you how to be a practicing lawyer or how to make money.
3: Law school is inefficient and the tuition was rising far too rapidly.
4: Legal jobs are so diverse, that it's extremely difficult to predict what kind of work you will be doing after graduation.
5: The first five years can be brutal for the massive portion of attorneys who start at less than 60k per year.




142
Where should I go next fall? / Re: I want to go back to law school
« on: July 11, 2012, 02:27:21 PM »
I don't remember what your UGPA is (and I don't know if you are just messing around), but it looks like low 170s will be required.

http://columbia.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants

143

I'm genuinely curious about this.  Please tell me why you think it would be better to take one class at a time

Ask your mommy. I'm beginng to think there are a bunch of retards on this forum. I quit posting to this forum a while back and I am going to stop posting again. Too many uneducated people on here asking stupid common sense questions. I'm not responding to to stupid questions.

I guess you may not read this, but I'll post it anyway.
The law is all interconnected.  I believe studying legal writing/research, contracts, property, and civ pro at the same time helps you to solidify concepts.  This is important because it can help you retain a portion of the massive amount of information you will be exposed to.   You can move at a decent pace, familiarize yourself with the law, and get some valuable context as well.   It's not as if you are studying literature and physics at the same time.  While contracts and property are different, most people study them in a similar way.
Additionally, some classes are interdependent.  Some people may want to take corporate taxation without waiting too long after federal taxation, media law soon after con law, criminal procedure soon after criminal law, etc.  A one-at-a-time approach makes this difficult.

I haven't been insulted on this forum in a long time.  I'm getting all nostalgic.



144
Non-Traditional Students / Re: Law school with a physics degree
« on: July 09, 2012, 12:05:16 PM »
Remember that even though law schools don't give you much credit for your degree type (Their rankings are affected by GPA and LSAT scores of their entering class), employers might.   Your degrees might be more appealing to IP firms, but I would call some firms you are interested in and ask them what schools they typically hire from. 
My current bosses are legal geeks and they wouldn't be impressed at all by a physics math joint degree, but I can think of a few hiring partners I've met who would be.  Very much so.

145
I don't like Concord because they take multiple classes at once. I think it would be better to take one, or no more than two classes at a time. Concord doesn't have a video demo of the instructor teaching class like some of the other schools do. I also don't have the bachelors to get into Concord. I need like 7 more classes. So I might have to go to one of the other schools.

I'm genuinely curious about this.  Please tell me why you think it would be better to take one class at a time

146
I graduated from a solid T2 with no job, but I had multiple offers by the time I was licensed.
It took a lot of work though.  Competition for all jobs, even low paying and government jobs, is absolutely nuts.
It's totally doable from a t2 or worse, but you have to earn it.

147
General Board / Re: My Goal
« on: July 05, 2012, 04:09:24 PM »
My goal is to get a second bachelor's degree.  This time in economics.  I have chosen to apply to Boston University.  What are my chances of admittance?  I mean, now I am 29 years old; soon to be 30.  I already have a bachelor's degree from the University of Maine, my GPA was ~3.56; I attended the University of Southern California Law School; I finished fifth in my class in high school; I was in the National Honor Society in high school; then in college I joined Pi Mu Epsilon and Phi Beta Kappa.  Furthermore, since elementary school, I received numerous awards in classes and physical fitness.  In high school, too.  For example, in high school, I received the Daughters of the American Revoultion Good Citizenship award twice, my freshman year and senior year.  I also got the Semper Fidelis award.  And, if I am not mistaken, I had the best grade point average in Spanish II.  And I've held a bunch of jobs over the years, including as an assistant manager at CVS/pharmacy in Boston.  My salary was like 39K annually.  And I sold about $ 2 million of merchandise at a car and truck dealership in North Hollywood California. And, I can play the "Crazy Train" solo!

But I've only had one girlfriend... ;-(

I'm pretty sure all of your posts are part of some parody, but I'm not certain.

148
I have several friends who attended McGeorge and they really loved it.  One even transferred to a higher ranked school after his first year and he felt like McGeorge was superior.

My impression based on hundreds of applications and tens of interviews (I went to a T2) is that employers care less about ranking difference the further out you go.    They may see the difference between 25 and 65 to be huge but I just don't think they would consider the difference between 65 and t3 to be huge.   Local reputation, your rank in the school, and your job experience during law school will be crucial.

All that said, there are always exceptions.  I was in an area with a good T2 (60-80) and a good T3 school nearby.  Nobody seemed to think the T2 offered a better education, but the T2 also had a great university and fantastic sports program.  It's silly, but I think that's why employers strongly favored the T2 school in head-to-head comparisons.   

I just jumped on kmtg.com and looked at their sacramento office.  Their attorney's graduated from:  (14/41  from McGeorge)

UC Davis
UC Davis
UC Davis
UC Davis
McGeorge
Golden Gate
Stanford
Cal Western
Pepperdine
UC Davis
UC Davis
McGeorge
Golden Gate
McGeorge
St. Mary's
Mcgeorge
Hastings
McGeorge
McGeorge
McGeorge
McGeorge
Berkeley
Texas
Hastings
Hastings
Davis
Davis
Hastings
McGeorge
Santa Clara
Berkeley
McGeorge
Davis
McGeorge
Santa Clara
McGeorge
Berkeley
Berkeley
MCgeorge
Mcgeorge
Hastings
McGeorge

149
Roald and I have gone back and forth about this, but I'm not so sure the quality of the program is the biggest indicator of bar passage.  I think quality of students has a significantly higher impact than the program.

Look at every T2 school in the nation and I bet you get varying bar exam pass rates.  The quality of the program doesn't really change much (it should improve) but bar rates go up and down significantly.

I just looked at one school that went down 18% and then back up 27%.   The overall bar passage in that state moved, but not nearly as much.

I do, however, think that you want to consider your own learning style and find a school that matches it.

150
My impression from schools other than the two you mention is that factors other than LSAT and GPA are only considered in the second round of review.   The school I graduated from, for instance, would do an index that factored only LSAT and GPA (weights: 65% LSAT 35% GPA).  They would automatically drop whoever was below a certain index (except for some URM) and automatically accept those above a certain index.  Then they would take the middle chunk and look for notable things like URM, an engineering degree, NCAA athletics, particular types of hardship. 

I had a strong professional background.  The admissions people told me they didn't even consider that stuff.

I'm not saying it's the same everywhere, but this type of analysis is common.   Lsac gives you close to a 0% chance at UC Davis, so I would guess that you wont' make the first cut and they will never consider your personal statement or resume.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/release/OfficialGuide_Default.aspx

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