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Messages - woeisme

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I think you are having a problem following what I am saying.  Cornell places a larger % of its class in NY, but Michigan could if it wanted to.  Very few Cornell students are working outside NY, relatively speaking (give me some firms and I'll show you).  At the same time, Cornell is no where near Michigan in total % of students in Biglaw + academia.

Okay, no, I get what you're saying. I think what I have trouble swallowing is the argument that a particular school could place somewhere if it wanted to. I'm not saying it's invalid, I just don't know how we go about proving it. For an example, I agree that Michigan has better options than Cornell with Academia (... I'm still going to argue with you on biglaw though, hah). But even given this, ... is it not possible that Cornell doesn't place as well in academia by choice? People go to schools because of reputation. If Cornell is known to open doors to east coast biglaw, ... maybe that's self selective in and of itself. Right? I'm not saying that this is the case, ... I'm saying it's just as plausible as your proposition. Ya know?

I think there are many things we can argue... we can argue what schools are harder to get into, what schools have more diverse students, what school's graduates end up doing, etc. But when we start saying, "well x school could do y, but chose not to"... it gets messy.

I agree completely that Michigan is a fabulous school. No doubt. Only xoxo HYS prestige whores would argue the contrary. And I'm not saying that someone should always choose Cornell over Michigan ... or Michigan over Cornell. I was talking about biglaw in NYC. Given the data, Cornell has more of a presence. Why that is is debatable and speculative.

Am I following ... or am I still missing something? (And if I am, ... I'm sorry for being so "dense" ... cut me some slack, I'm at Cornell, not Penn!  ;D)

How did you get into Cornell?  I said % of a class working in a city isn't a measure, not that you shouldn't account for class size.  They don't dig deeper into Cornell is my point, its just that Cornell doesn't have the national options Michigan does.  Are you really debating that the Michigan grads working at the top firms in Cali and DC coudn't get a job in NY?  At the same time, Cornell isn't even represented at many of these firms, as the vast majority of the class doesn't work outside NY.

Haha, ... I'm happy to discuss this with you, but seriously, what's with the hostility? Stop attacking! Sheesh!

I'm just not sure why you're saying Michigan has better national options. For starters, I'm not convinced that that's true, though I'd certainly be open to considering that. I think what we were talking about, though, was NYC placement, not national placement. I'm confused on what you're arguing. Are you agreeing that Cornell places better in NYC, but ONLY because they don't have the other options MIchigan does? I don't buy this argument even for a second, unfortunately. Furthermore, I'm not sure how you're going to prove this; there's really no evidence to suggest what you're suggesting (at least none that I've found ... and none that you've provided). And even if we suppose for a second that this claim is valid, ... how does it logically follow that Michigan would place better than Cornell in NYC? You're telling me they can place better, they just choose not to. Obviously, ... this is speculative ... and it would be wholly irrational to make a decision on which school to attend based on this. Obviously you know this!

I think we should let this debate die.... we can each reside to having our own opinions ... I'm not up for name-calling and speculation. Either provide some data or let's agree to disagree. Yes?

Are you this dense.  Cornell doesn't place much outside NYC so it isn't self-selection.  On the other hand, Mich grads not only go in substantial numbers to other cities, but also work at places like Wilmer or Keker.  These people would have had the choice of any non-Wachtell NY firm.  It is a personal attack - you are a 0L going off the word of other 0L going off the word of the school.  Then you go on to use leiter's rankings, how do you not see how flawed these are - your basing your ranking on 7 NY firms Leiter chose based on the ease of using their database?

First of all, I'm not a 0L. I'm not relying on any 0Ls ... and I've done my research. Second of all, Cornell doesn't place much outside is ridiculous hyperbole ... and I'm sure you know this. That would be like saying Penn doesn't place outside Philly/NYC or GULC outside DC. I don't think it's worth anyone's time to entertain that notion. Furthermore, I again question what makes you so confident that placement from any given school is not the result of self-selection.

You can criticize any study out there, but at least the study I provided gives accurate data (even if you feel the sample size is too small). Where does your data come from? The fact of the matter is (and you'll have a hard time arguing this), ... NYC firms tend to dig a little deeper into the class for Cornell. At least, this would appear to be the case. I am NOT suggesting that a Michigan grad with solid grades would have any difficulty at all in NYC. What I'm suggesting is that if you're 100% set on NYC, Cornell is a safer option. As is Duke. As is Penn.

And percentage of class IS the relevant measure... because Cornell and Duke are much smaller than both Penn and Michigan.

You can normalize for clerkships by looking at firms incoming classes, not summer.  You can normalize for academia because the data of every new hire is available.  PI and gov't is harder, but those along with academia and clerkships, make is clear how much better Mich does.  I don't even go to Mich, but to insinuate Cornell places better then Mich in NY is the ramblings of a naive 0L.  Pretty much any Mich grad working in Biglaw or a boutique in DC or Cali could have worked in NY. 

Yeah, I don't actually know the methodology used for that particular chart. It's just an example of how someone could think Cornell places better than Michigan. It's essentially impossible to come up with a hypothetical "What if everyone who went to X Law School and Y Law School were competing with each other for jobs in Job Market Z." Regions of employment are (at least partially) self-selected. Even comparing national employment at elite firms leaves out those who could have gotten those jobs but opted for government or public interest or clerkships. I'd be happy to hear an explanation of a legitimate way to really measure/compare placement possibilities without the presence of all those uncertainties. If someone knows, that's info I'd love to have.

I love the personal attacks, ... but I don't find any support for what you're claiming. What you're saying is that Michigan doesn't have as good of a showing in NYC as Cornell due to self selection. As another poster mentioned this is possible. By the same logic, though, it's possible that Cornell may not place as well elsewhere due to self-selection too. Whichever school you prefer is irrelevant (although pretty clear from your posts).


HTFH  :-*

I'd take Penn over Mich (well, I did), and the current data being studied on xoxo backs this up.  No way I'd take Cornell or Duke over Mich for northeast placement.  Duke does pretty well, but Cornell isn't close.

Wait, notheast? Seriously. This is false, actually. Cornell places better than both Mich and Duke. Do your research.

Yeah, Michigan is going to have better biglaw options than Texas. Have you heard from Penn, Cornell, or Duke yet? They place well in NE big law. I'd consider those too, perhaps before MIchigan if you're set on moving east.

Law School Admissions / Re: what schools do you guys think....
« on: January 05, 2009, 03:26:27 PM »
It's probably a little late, but I don't think a 170 3.3 (even with upward trend) is that competitve at T6. I'd say bottom half of T14 is more realistic (and even then, not guaranteed by any means).

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Macs at Cornell
« on: January 03, 2009, 01:55:54 PM »
Anyone use a mac @ Cornell?  Has it ever been a problem??

Yes and no.

What sort of problem were you referring to  ???

EDIT: That's yes I use a mac ... and no, no problems.

If anything, the designation "T14" should be changed, because at this point, there are more than 14 "national" level schools.

I think the designation of T14 is two-fold. First, these are the decidedly "national" schools. But second, all of the schools within the T14 have at some point been ranked in the top ten.

So yeah, it's hard to break the conception of the T14 ... even if a new school breaks into the 14 slot ... it still won't be a true or "historical"  T14 ... at least not in the same sense as the rest of them.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Nightlife in Ithaca? Durham?
« on: December 22, 2008, 08:27:01 PM »
Wow, that's already more than I go out as an undergrad :(

Yeah, I mean it varies by person obviously. But it's really not so bad. Come visit! :)

btw, where do you go for UG? (PM me?)

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