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Messages - mcleod13

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General Board / Re: Why trash T3 and T4 schools?
« on: April 14, 2008, 10:56:56 AM »
I don't know why you took offense to what I said. Could it be that my statement offended your reasons for attending a higher tier school? If so, you shouldn't be offended.

If you look at all the pre-law boards and talk to most students they will tell you the reason they choose the higher tiered school because they want the better jobs. They don't say, "Going to a T14 school will make me a better lawyer."
I have talked to many, many students and have NEVER heard that statement. I have, however, heard the statement, "Going to (insert your favorite T14 here) will help me make get alot of money".

In regards to the comment about schools telling their students to take classes solely for bar prep. I have yet to hear that. I have heard students say that. However, when a professor at my school has recommended a class it is usually because he or she feels that it will help the student in the future. I was recommended to take a class on Negotiations in order to supplement my criminal law classes.

Again, I have never intended to offend anyone that goes to a higher tiered school. They are smart for playing the game. I don't blame them at all. However, I do take offense to the statements that I will be less of a lawyer because I attend a T4 school.

Also, what makes the USNWR rankings so reliable. From what I understand the factors they use (i.e. total books in the library, cost, REPUTATION, average female cup size, total number of left handed students, and the total number of redheads) are so arbitrary that the rankings can be manipulated. When I was stationed in VA Beach, I had a discussion about rankings with a UT grad. He believed that the rankings did nothing but harm the legal profession because alot of well trained and capable lawyers were not given the chances they deserved because of the rankings.

However, like I said, I did not mean to offend anyone that attends a T14 school. Congrats to them for making it and taking advantage of it. I just don't see why it must be us against them. Unless I am mistaken and they have changed the rules recently, we are all going to be lawyers after we graduate.

12
General Board / Re: Why trash T3 and T4 schools?
« on: April 14, 2008, 10:41:23 AM »
I never felt the need to edit a post on a discussion board. It just isn't worth it. And I guess it was my mistake in using such a blanket term as ALL. I do believe that a great number of tier 3/4 law schools do produce just as good of lawyers as the Top tier schools. That is what I believe, and I apologize if you cannot accept that. I am not ignorant about the careers I am interested in. I do know many JAGs and SA and PD. I have clerked for Judges and have talked with all of the SAs and PDs. I will also be externing with the SAs for the next year.

As far as your comment of not being able to rise to the top of my T4, I cannot help it that you refuse to accept the fact that I missed an entire month of law school to be with my wife in ICU because she almost died after what was supposed to be a routine surgery. I was in a different state sitting with her in the hospital. Also, even when I did return to school, I had to take care of her and my son because she could not walk 5 feet without falling. So yeah, my GPA did take a hit as I had one bad semester. Prior to that I was in the top of my class. yes I do attend a 4th tier school, which, until 3 weeks ago was a 3rd tier school. Why USNWR dropped our ranking, I do not know, nor do I care. I still believe that it is the student that makes the lawyer and not the school. How many different ways are there to teach RAP (which is completely useless if I do say so myself), or Res Ipsa Locquitor?

I don't know where you got your impression that my GPA and school do not qualify me for JAG internships. I had an offer but cannot participate. Which in all honesty, will probably destroy my chances for a commission. I don't know where you got the impression that everyone can just put their entire life on hold, regardless of the circumstances, and attend the best school. Who knows, I may not have been accepted, I will never know. But I didn't see the point in even trying when I wouldn't be able to go. I don't know if you have a family of our own or not, however, I am going to assume that you do not. There is absolutely no way that you would be able to know what I have went through. You can ask any of my professors at my school or any of my classmates who were here last year and they will tell you that the fact I passed is somewhat impressive. But here I am, still standing.

Finally, I don't know where you got the impression that I thought it was going to be easy. I have never said that. If I did, I was wrong. I have never had it easy and don't expect to anytime soon. But what I do know is that I will have a J.D., I will be a lawyer, and I will be able to go up against anyone in court. Yes, that does mean that I will be able to litigate against anyone. Does that mean that I think I will win everytime, no. Does that mean I will be the best litigator, no. Does this mean that I will be able to hold my own, yes.

13
General Board / Re: Why trash T3 and T4 schools?
« on: April 14, 2008, 08:50:58 AM »
He also said:

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But that still does not change my feeling that all law schools learn the same stuff. While some schools have bigger libraries, richer doners, fancier lawns, and the professor drive more expensive cars, they all teach the same stuff.
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I was referring to the fact that I had everything else that they have, High GPA, a great deal of work experience, great work ethic etc...
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The only thing separating me from those at top tier schools is that I didn't have the time to dedicated and study for the LSAT.

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just those clowns that think they have it made because they attend a top tier school and feel the need to criticize us that cannot go.

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I think part of the reason that most of the people who trash lower tiered schools is because that have a severe need to feed their self-worth. I guarantee that, with the exception of certain state law, we are all learning the same material.

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Most assume that we all want the big firm job working 80+ hours a week. I have no desire for such a thing. I have a family and would much rather make less money but have a life.
  (Making less money doesn't mean you have a life.  Poor lawyers work just as hard as rich lawyers.)

Awful arrogant (and ignorant) for a guy with less-than-impressive grades at a fourth tier law school.

First of all Peaches, you are going to make an excellent lawyer. I mean after all, excellent lawyers do have to make personal attacks in order to make a point.

Second, I want to be a prosecutor or PD. I also want to go back in the military and be a JAG. It is the type of lawyer I want to be and I am pretty certain that they do not work anywhere near the amount of hours as those in Big Law. I am neither arrogant nor ignorant. I merely pointed out that I have all of the other factors except an extremely high LSAT score. That was it.

Third, I have never put down those that attend the higher tiered law schools. I was merely making a statement about those that have the need to put those that attend a lower tiered school. I apologize if you are offended by that, but there must be a reason. I have several friends who attend higher tiered law schools (i.e. GW, U of I, WASHU) and they are great. I don't see why you must resort to negative attacks to try and prove your point. I have my opinions and you have yours but because I don't agree it makes me arrogant and ignorant. I may attend what is now a fourth tier law school, but I do not have less than impressive grades. Especially accounting for what I have been through since I started law school. I do not wish it upon anyone to have to go through what I hae went through.

14
General Board / Re: Why trash T3 and T4 schools?
« on: April 13, 2008, 07:48:36 PM »
I wish someone would do me the favor or looking up where Carbondale, IL is and then look where U of I is. It is a great deal to travel.

15
General Board / Re: Why trash T3 and T4 schools?
« on: April 13, 2008, 07:40:48 PM »
I don't think I mooted my own point. By saying I didn't have time to prepare I was attempting to point out the fact that the LSAT can be studied and prepared for. That is why I don't think it is an accurate predictor.

As far as your question goes, I still would have to say that I don't believe that the LSAT is an accurate predictor at all. For Example, you ahve 2 graduates from 2 different law schools. One from a T25 and the other from a Third Tier school. They both have the same ranking. However, the one from the T25 received a 174 LSAT and the Third Tier a 153. Now, if you were charged with Capital murder, I am assuming you would choose the T25 law student. However, what if the T25 student received nothing more than a 2.7 in criminal law classes and specialized in Contracts or Tort law. The Third Tier student however, received 4.0's in all his crim law classes and specialized in Crim Law. Now who would you choose.

I'm sorry, you didn't have time to study for the LSAT? That is such bull. You have time to graduate Magna from some school, you have time to go to law school, but not to study for the LSAT? You can do very well on the LSAT by studying 6 hours per week for 8 weeks. Not a trivial amount of time but not nearly the time commitment required for any of the other accomplishments you claim to have. Even if you intended to go to a T3 then you would be insane to not put that time aside so that you could score a scholarship. Also, you claim there is no way you would go to a top school? Again, nonsense. If you really graduated Magna, and were in the military, and got a good lsat score, and a special needs son, you could easily have gotten a scholarship to some T1. Its funny how you think that the only bad admission criterion is the one you are poor at.

Actually, it is not Bull. Doing all of that other stuff like: Being a father, going to Dr's Appt, still going to school, working, trying to be a husband, I barely had time for anything. And I never said I was bad at it. I got what I needed to get into the school I go to. Like I have said many times, even if I had applied and been accepted, there was NO WAY I could have went. And again, as I have said before but people keep ragging on the fact that I don't believe that the school you go to matters on how good of a lawyer, if I had been able to go to another school, I likely would ahve at least tried. However, I knew that I wouldn't be able to go if I wanted to. I am not stupid, I know how to play the game. I know my chances are going to be limited coming out of this school. I have never argued otherwise. But that still does not change my feeling that all law schools learn the same stuff. While some schools have bigger libraries, richer doners, fancier lawns, and the professor drive more expensive cars, they all teach the same stuff.

16
General Board / Re: Why trash T3 and T4 schools?
« on: April 13, 2008, 02:35:53 PM »
I wasn't making excuses for not getting in. Hell, I didn't even apply. I said the only difference was an LSAT score. I was referring to the fact that I had everything else that they have, High GPA, a great deal of work experience, great work ethic etc...

I don't know what everyone is getting on my case. I said, and I still stand by what I said. The ranking of the law school does not pretermine how good of a lawyer one will be.

As far as there being T14 law schools in IL, you are right, however, they are 300+ miles from rest of my family....


17
General Board / Re: Why trash T3 and T4 schools?
« on: April 13, 2008, 01:52:52 PM »
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The only thing separating me from those at top tier schools is that I didn't have the time to dedicated and study for the LSAT.
That's like walking in to an art gallery and saying "I could paint that."  The point is that you didn't.  Saying you could paint it doesn't mean you could actually do it. 

Few people really have time to study for the LSAT.  If you have good judgment, then you MAKE time to study for the LSAT.  And, hypothetically, if more time to prepare would have increased your LSAT score so dramatically, then really the thing that separates you from those at top tier law schools is JUDGMENT and prioritizing. And that IS important for being a lawyer.

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Even if I did, I wouldn't have been able to attend a top tier. school.

What is that supposed to mean?  Cost?  Because the crap law schools charge almost as much as the fancy schools... and almost all of the people at the T14 pay for school the same way as everyone at T4 -- loans.  (And, well, high-paying summer jobs.) Nobody in the T14 has $100,000 to $200,000 shoved between the couch cushions.  Anyone can afford to go to a top tier law school if they want.


If you had read my previous posts I had to attend my school because of family/financial situations. I have a 7 yo son with special needs and need the help of family members.


18
General Board / Re: Why trash T3 and T4 schools?
« on: April 12, 2008, 11:41:31 PM »
I don't think I mooted my own point. By saying I didn't have time to prepare I was attempting to point out the fact that the LSAT can be studied and prepared for. That is why I don't think it is an accurate predictor.

As far as your question goes, I still would have to say that I don't believe that the LSAT is an accurate predictor at all. For Example, you ahve 2 graduates from 2 different law schools. One from a T25 and the other from a Third Tier school. They both have the same ranking. However, the one from the T25 received a 174 LSAT and the Third Tier a 153. Now, if you were charged with Capital murder, I am assuming you would choose the T25 law student. However, what if the T25 student received nothing more than a 2.7 in criminal law classes and specialized in Contracts or Tort law. The Third Tier student however, received 4.0's in all his crim law classes and specialized in Crim Law. Now who would you choose.

19
General Board / Re: Why trash T3 and T4 schools?
« on: April 12, 2008, 10:02:31 PM »

Give me a break. Going to a top tier school reflects work ethic and intelligence--both of which *are* good predictors of one's future success as a lawyer. Would you say the combination of a high LSAT score, graduating magna cum from a top undergrad, working post graduate, etc., are indicators of the potential for success as an attorney? I would. And granted, there will be outliers--the brilliant student who coasted through undergrad, aced the LSAT and law school but cannot cope with the stress of the legal world; the hard working yet poor test taker who goes to a lower tier school but through sheer force of will rises to the top. Many other generic examples could be offered but, and here is the key, *on average*, LSAT + GPA + work ethic + intelligence = good lawyer. In that sense, LSAT is *a* good predictor of one's potential for success as a lawyer.

Again, I have to disagree. I was in the Navy most of my undergrad. I went to school 12 credit hours a semester, was in the Navy, had a part time job, and was/am a father and a husband. I also graduated magna cum laude. The only thing separating me from those at top tier schools is that I didn't have the time to dedicated and study for the LSAT. Even if I did, I wouldn't have been able to attend a top tier. school.

I have no idea why people are getting so bent out of shape. I didn't say I have anything against those that go to top tier schools, just those clowns that think they have it made because they attend a top tier school and feel the need to criticize us that cannot go. I thought about transferring after my first year, not because I think that other schools are better because I don't, but because I am smart enough to know that might be the only way I can get out of Southern Illinois. However, I missed a month of law school due to my wife being in ICU, and I had to take care of her and my son until way after the second semester was over. However, I still passed and was above the median in all classes.

Again, I have said that the majority of those who talk bad about us are on other boards, however they are all over the place. You can see it on websites that talk about clerkships. I read a post by someone who was pissed because he got passed over by someone at a T3 school. He felt that he should have had it handed to him because he was in the top 10% of his class at a T20 school.

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General Board / Re: Why trash T3 and T4 schools?
« on: April 12, 2008, 07:51:07 PM »
If you go to a top tier school your probably pretty smart? Hmm, lets see, to me it seems that you are likely a better LSAT tester and I have yet to see anyone prove that the LSAT is a good predicter of how one will be as a lawyer.

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