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Messages - whartonn

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11
Where should I go next fall? / Re: 2009 US News & Vandy
« on: May 19, 2008, 08:57:04 PM »
Why use the 2005 NLJ graphic when the 2007 NLJ numbers are available? The newest numbers show Georgetown placing nearly 10% more of its class at NLJ 250 firms. In real numbers, Georgetown places over 225 more students at NLJ250 firms than does Vandy.

More importantly, the NLJ 250 numbers do not give the total picture of the opportunities open to students at the T14. For instance, Vanderbilt places a higher percentage of its students at NLJ 250 firms than does Yale. But you canít seriously argue that Vandy has better BigLaw options than Yale.

Part of what is going on here is the availability of certain jobs (academia, clerking, government, consulting, etc..) to T14 graduates which are unavailable to most non-T14 graduates. Such a phenomen likely depresses the percentage of the class at Georgetown choosing to enter BigLaw.

At the end of the day, the T14 are only truly national schools. BUT, Vanderbilt is certainly among the best of the non-T14 options.   

I used the 2005 numbers for that point because that is the only data I've seen where the aggregate of all the schools is together. I used it in such a way because the NLJ numbers do not paint the right picture (which is why I posted my graphic which ordered by the aggregate of clerkships and NLJ 250). If you can find the total NLJ 250 placement and clerkship placement for all the relevant schools, go ahead and show me. I'd be interested to see it for sure. After all, they're the two easiest tokens we can use to compare because it's clearly defined (unlike public interest, gov't, etc that should count as impressive or not impressive).

I don't understand why you keep pointing to "real numbers" to bolster the argument. GULC has 550+ students. It's a stupid comparison to make to a class of 220.

The "real numbers matter" because the NL250 is composed of a set number of firms. Placing 315 students at 250 select firms is a lot more difficult and impressive than placing 89.

I posted the link to the 2007 NLJ 250 below. As I stated beefore, the NLJ 250 numbers do not give the total picture of the opportunities (government, academia, clerkships, consulting, etc) open to students at the T14. For instance, Vanderbilt places a higher percentage of its students at NLJ 250 firms than does Yale. Would you seriously argue that Vandy has better BigLaw options than Yale?

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1207904889529

12
Where should I go next fall? / Re: 2009 US News & Vandy
« on: May 19, 2008, 07:39:59 PM »
Why use the 2005 NLJ graphic when the 2007 NLJ numbers are available? The newest numbers show Georgetown placing nearly 10% more of its class at NLJ 250 firms. In real numbers, Georgetown places over 225 more students at NLJ250 firms than does Vandy.

um, is this a typo or am i just missing something else?  how does 10% of GULC translate to 225 students?

Vandy has a tiny class, so 89 students is about 40% of their class.
Georgetown has a very large class, so 315 students is about 50% of their class

oh yeah....

thanks!  i was having kind of a blond moment there.

No problem!  ;D

13
Where should I go next fall? / Re: 2009 US News & Vandy
« on: May 19, 2008, 07:35:15 PM »
Why use the 2005 NLJ graphic when the 2007 NLJ numbers are available? The newest numbers show Georgetown placing nearly 10% more of its class at NLJ 250 firms. In real numbers, Georgetown places over 225 more students at NLJ250 firms than does Vandy.

um, is this a typo or am i just missing something else?  how does 10% of GULC translate to 225 students?

Vandy has a tiny class, so 89 students is about 40% of their class.
Georgetown has a very large class, so 315 students is about 50% of their class

14
Where should I go next fall? / Re: 2009 US News & Vandy
« on: May 19, 2008, 07:23:39 PM »

The current 2007 numbers for Vandy - the ones I posted the XLS of - (I don't know GULC, they didn't release them yet) are 50.5% of the class in the NLJ 250. So while the comparison between Vandy and GULC is hard to make since GULC didn't release their placement in the same way, the numbers are much higher than the ones you cite. But even if we look at the 2005 numbers (the NLJ graphic), GULC and Vandy are neck and neck. The graphic makes it easy to undermine the T14 myth.

Why use the 2005 NLJ graphic when the 2007 NLJ numbers are available? The newest numbers show Georgetown placing nearly 10% more of its class at NLJ 250 firms. In real numbers, Georgetown places over 225 more students at NLJ250 firms than does Vandy.

More importantly, the NLJ 250 numbers do not give the total picture of the opportunities open to students at the T14. For instance, Vanderbilt places a higher percentage of its students at NLJ 250 firms than does Yale. But you canít seriously argue that Vandy has better BigLaw options than Yale.

Part of what is going on here is the availability of certain jobs (academia, clerking, government, consulting, etc..) to T14 graduates which are unavailable to most non-T14 graduates. Such a phenomen likely depresses the percentage of the class at Georgetown choosing to enter BigLaw.

At the end of the day, the T14 are only truly national schools. BUT, Vanderbilt is certainly among the best of the non-T14 options.



 

15
Where should I go next fall? / Re: 2009 US News & Vandy
« on: May 19, 2008, 04:45:16 PM »
I agree. Vandy will likely continue to swap places with UCLA and Texas for the next 10 years to drum-up excitement for each successive release of US News. It seems like US News likes to play musical chairs with UCLA/USC/UT/WUSTL/Vandy/GW to make it seem like there is real change between 15-19
As for employment prospects, Vandy is not nearly as good as the T14. That being said, their employment prospects are about as good as it gets for a non-T14. They do especially well in the Southeast.

While true that Vandy's placement is not as good as GULC's, it's not "not nearly as good as the T14."It's a mere shade below and its only the preconceived idea of the T14 that causes anybody to continue thinking it after seeing the statistics.

I think you got a little too defensive over my post. In all fairness, I did write that Vandy is about as good as it gets for non-T14.

Moreover, I think your assertion that Vandy is only "a shade below" T14 is more of a stretch than me saying Vandy is not nearly as good as T14 for placement. Georgetown places roughly 10% more of its class in the NLJ 250 than Vandy. In actual numbers, Georgetown places 315 JD's at the NLJ 250 compared to just 89 from Vandy. Looking at elite firm placement is even starker. LawFirmAddict shows Georgetown placing 34% of its class at V100 compared to 19% for Vandy.

Employment doesn't end at BigLaw though.  Georgetown placed more than double the number of Federal clerks than Vandy did for 2008. In academia, Georgetown had more than five times the placement of Vandy in Legal Professorship between 2003-2007. All of this doesnít take into account the choice (and success) of many Georgetown graduates in entering government and politics.

Most importantly, you chose as an example the T14 with the worst placement. Cornell and Northwestern place 20-30% more of their class at NLJ 250 firms than does Vandy.

Like I said, Vandy is not nearly as good as the T14, but it is among the best non-T14's. Vandy is a lot closer to GW and USC than it is to the T14.

16
Where should I go next fall? / Re: 2009 US News & Vandy
« on: May 19, 2008, 12:32:04 PM »
Don't worry about Vandy's ranking...that's not what's important. My personal opinion is that Vandy has plateaud in the rankings, but not due to its own fault. Georgetown is just too much a monster to overcome.( I actually think UCLA is the most likely to jump GULC...don't think it will happen though)

What you should worry about is Vandy's job placement. And using the NLJ 250 data, as well as Vandy's own release of its job placement data, it's becoming clear that Vandy places very well. It's not quite as strong nationally as the T14, but if you do reasonably well there you should be in good shape.

I agree. Vandy will likely continue to swap places with UCLA and Texas for the next 10 years to drum-up excitement for each successive release of US News. It seems like US News likes to play musical chairs with UCLA/USC/UT/WUSTL/Vandy/GW to make it seem like there is real change between 15-19

As for employment prospects, Vandy is not nearly as good as the T14. That being said, their employment prospects are about as good as it gets for a non-T14. They do especially well in the Southeast.

17
Where should I go next fall? / Re: $$$UF or Gtown
« on: May 19, 2008, 12:25:09 PM »
sorry about my absence guys, but I appreciate your responses. The most challenging condition set forth in the scholarship is being within the top 33% by start of my 2nd year. I would like to midlaw 1st, biglaw 2nd or government counsel 3rd. I would like to practice in FL, Texas or North Carolina

I would choose Georgetown. UF doesn't really place outside of Florida. If you had any interest in NC or Texas, Georgetown could easily get you into those markets.

18
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Vandy & Cornell
« on: April 14, 2008, 05:21:40 PM »
Heh, anybody who describes Nashville as "hicksville" hasn't been many places in the south. From what little time I spent there, it wasn't any different than the other smaller cities in the south (Charlotte, Raleigh, Richmond). Around the city, away from where any students would have to go, I'm sure it might fit the label "hicksville." And I promise, quail, this isn't heinous Vandy trolling so much as it is "don't talk poo about the south" anti-trolling. There are some weird, weird parts, but Nashville is not one of them. I've lived all over the country and have been comfortable in a lot of different places, so maybe I have a unique perspective.

I grew up in North Carolina and love the South. To me, Nashville is not Hicksville, although many people come away with that feeling. I do find Nashville depressing though.

19
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Vandy & Cornell
« on: April 14, 2008, 05:13:29 PM »
I will say this about Ithaca from the few times I was up there (brother went to Ithaca UG)

There is NOTHING there. You literally drive for five hours on the same freakin road and then BOOM! campus. It's depressing.  If you're sort of citified (as in, you like civilization) Cornell will be hell.

Personally, I think you should go to Vandy.  There's something to be said for emotional reasons.

I very much disagree. Out of all my visits, Cornell was one of the most beautiful and happy campuses I have ever been to.

I also disagree with the notion that "citified people" could never live in Ithaca for 3 years. New Yorkers think of themselves as the most "citified" people in the world and Cornell is heavily populated by students from New York City. In addition, Cornell has many students from warm weather states like California.

Conversely, I have heard many people describe Vanderbilt as depressing. I have heard it said that Vandy and Nashville are "hicksville" and strip-mall hell.

20
Hello,

I donít really post that often, but I need some help guys. I was pretty much thinking I was gonna go to Mcgeorge this fall because I had only gotten waitlists and rejections and the only schools I had left were IUB, Univ San Diego and Loyola Law School.  I had already gotten waitlisted at USF so I figured I was going to get rejected from these schools, but I got my IUB acceptance last Friday. YAY.  By the way my gpa was 2.44 and my LSAT is 165.  I thought I had no chance at this school.  So hereís the dilemma.  I know it sounds stupid, but would I be dumb for going to Loyola or San Diego if I were to get accepted? What if I were to ask Mcgeorge for more money and they gave it to me?  Mcgeorge is offering 10k a year, and IUB is 24k over 3 years and I have to maintain 3.2 gpa. 
Things to consider:
Iíve never lived outside of California and I want to live here after I graduate.  (How does IUB place in California?)
My family and friends all live in California.
My gf is in California and if I did go to IUB we would have to break up, and I donít want to
I donít know about living in Indiana ( I would know nobody)

Some additional questions
1.   How hard is it to maintain a 3.2 GPA at IUB?
2.   How hard do you think it would be for me to find a job in California after I graduate from IUB?
3.   How hard is it to get in-state-tuition after a year at IUB? People say its hard but not impossible, but what exactly does that mean?

THANKS GUYS

If you want to work in California, IUB will not situate you any better than LLS or USD. IMO, IUB is not national enough to make it worth leaving your home state and your girlfriend. It would be different if you were considering Notre Dame.

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