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Messages - barond

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General Board / Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
« on: July 13, 2010, 12:05:46 AM »
Just curious how Golden Gate attrition is compared to my Tier 4 .  We also do not have a mandatory cut, but the 2.7 curve yields a predictable bell curve wherefore the bottom of the class is swept out.  We started with 236 in the fall.  Only 213 were around to take the Term 2 exams.  13 of the 213 appear to be below the required 2.0 on the class ranks. This is actually much lower than recent years- it is usually 20 students.

So that leaves 200.  Take away the expected 20 to 30 transfers (not me) and you are left with approximately 175 students and a 26% attrition rate. Assuming arguendo that this constitutes one of the highest attrition rates in the country ( i think it is top 10) it is still not unreasonable because many of these numbers were not arising out of academic dismissals.

I also don't know how you could be cut throat either.  We did very little 'book' research and the little bit we did do was not even graded.  I presume cutthroat would be not helping out a student who asks you a question or something to that effect. That may not even rise to the level of being considered 'cut throat'.  Maybe cut throat would be giving the false impression that you are barely doing any work where in reality you are studying more than anybody else.  Stealing someone elses supplements when they are in the bathroom?  That would be theft not being cut throat.

Competitiveness and cut throat are 2 completely different things.   As far as competitiveness, understand that all students are looking out for their own best interests.  Most of these ballers have been getting great grades their entire life and they study ferociously for hours and hours every week just trying to get the pleasure arising out of A's.  Even in the lowly Tier 4 I attend- the students say that it is not competitive, but I don't buy that.  Law school is competitive no matter where you go.

Now cut throat implies a student engaging in improper conduct. That is certainly unethical and unwarranted no matter how badly someone wants the pleasure arising out of A's.  The dean said in his welcome ceremony that from this point on you are supposed to conduct yourself as attorneys. I think law school is more competitive and less cut throat.

General Board / Re: A typical law school class session?
« on: July 10, 2010, 09:44:41 PM »
Every casebook/ professor has a different style, but you have the gist of it. Read cases and talk about them. Very little black letter law is talked about.

General Board / Bow ties
« on: July 01, 2010, 01:59:33 PM »
Any other students in here enjoy pimpin a bow tie ala John Paul Stevens? I would think they would be eye pleasing in court.

General Board / Externships/Internships
« on: June 29, 2010, 11:08:47 PM »
I don't really know the difference, but I just got an email about an Intellectual Property externship for the fall semester. Its unpaid, but you get credit. Its a really well known manufacturer who claim to introduce you to in house/out house counsel differences and many other things.

How difficult is it to get these positions and is it wise to do so?

Where should I go next fall? / Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« on: June 28, 2010, 06:57:21 PM »
I respect your allegations of schools preying on students for money.  However, I disagree.   Charleston was created because there was only 1 law school in South Carolina. There was a real need there. Many T4's have been in existance for many decades and most are non-profit.

Secondly, in the long run all lawyers will benefit from all these schools pumping out law school graduates year after year. There will be more and more  lawsuits (and need for legal services) and that results in lawyers getting paid. In the short term, certainly more competion in combination with a bad economy will make for a turbulent time.

Where should I go next fall? / Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« on: June 28, 2010, 06:36:25 PM »
I'm glad you responded SASS. I think it was you who some time ago commented that you liked your T4 school professors and the education, but you disliked some of your classmates "because they have no business being lawyers".  I think that goes to my 'elitist logic' from above and the fact T1 folks here try to dissuade would-be law students from attending a Tier 4.

Big pimpin Bigs.... man you got to shorten them paragraphs. I like what you got to say and agree with much of it, but the attention span does not allow me to absorb all the breadth of your postings.

No school wants to ruin your life why would they??  I just hate when people post these unfounded ludicrous horror stories about tier 4's maybe they are true at these schools I have no idea since I don't go, but I do know for a 100% fact that they are not true at GGU.

Their goal isn't to ruin your life, it is to make money.  That is why all these schools keep opening . . . all about the money.   For example, Charleston School of Law opened 5 or so years ago.  Do you know who opened it?  Partners at law firms in Charleston, as a money maker.  South Carolina already had a law school in USC which is where almost all the lawyers in Charleston came from and USC is well respected in SC. No need for another school in the state. Their library is in the same building as a music venue called the Music Farm and they had a very low bar passage rate for the past couple of years.  Do you think the founders really care about those individuals?

I will say it again, I went to a T4 (not Charleston, fyi) and I can speak from personal experience that T4's are not worth it.  I also transferred to a T20 and can tell the T4's that there is absolutely NO comparison between the schools.  The T4's are not in the same league.  Why on earth would anyone incur debts of $150K or more to fight uphill?  If it is going to be an uphill battle your entire career, why do it?  This is why I tell all people who want to go to law school to concentrate on the LSAT.  Many people who go to those schools think that if they work hard, good things will come.  That is not always true, no matter how much anyone of us wish it were so.  There are a lot of people shut out right now, while the schools continue to collect tuition.

Where should I go next fall? / Re: Tier 4 Law Schools
« on: June 28, 2010, 05:41:57 PM »
I agree with Mr. Bigz that the Tier 4 academic attrition is not as bad as it appears.  Some attrition is due to transfers or people voluntarily withdrawing. I was terrified with fear of getting dismissed, but made it rather comfortably.

I think the Tier 1 folks here want this profession to be elitist- like how Canada does it.  Only the academically gifted are allowed to get past the gatekeeper, otherwise known as undergraduate GPA and the LSAT.

For those who follow this elitist logic- what is your counterargument on the theory of Tier 4 graduates NOT wanting to work at law firms or serve at the pleasure of an employer.  This type of student attends Tier 4 to 'hang his own shingle' out there and provides 1 on 1 personalized service with clients and carves out a niche for him or her self.

The employment prospects are currently pretty tough in my limited opinion, but I like to stay positive and not negative.   I was talking to one recent graduate who got some kind of job as a clerk with a judge after doing an internship.  One other graduate had nothing lined up- even tho she was a top student. I got a fancy UDM dvd that had Dennis Archer that was really motivating, but getting a job in this competitive field will never be easy.

I attend in the evenings, so didn't really network too well about employment prospects- I was just trying to survive the first year grind and learn as much as I can.  I have checked the lsac 9 month out employment numbers the past 4 years and its gone from 85 to 89 to 91 to 75%.   The 75% certainly is concerning, but still thats 3 out of 4 who have some sort of employment. As we all know, having a degree of any kind guarantees you nothing. There are plenty of internships/externships available.  From what I can gather- I have confidence this school provides resources and opportunities. Thats all you can really ask for.

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