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Messages - treefity350

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31
General Off-Topic Board / Re: iraq timetable
« on: August 30, 2008, 02:30:20 AM »
I think that we are starting from different premises.  This argument will go nowhere.

But your prophetic language is unsupported. If anything I think that the truth of the matter is that the tide of opinion is turning away from your position.

...bashir and the furs...

bashir will be removed...and punished for his crimes.

my language is not prophetic...look at the genocidal murderers in human history...look at the facts..

You tell me to look at the facts but argue that genocidal dictators began with hitler. In fact, genocide, while certainly more prevalent in the last century, is an unfortunate fact of human history, as a whole. WE MUST RISE ABOVE SENSELESS VIOLENCE. Whatever the good intentions of your argument, the consequences of your suggestions will fail those we intend to help almost as badly as they will fail the U.S.

32
General Off-Topic Board / Re: iraq timetable
« on: August 30, 2008, 02:12:43 AM »
I think that we are starting from different premises.  This argument will go nowhere.

You speak of the problem of "treating human bodies as meaningless shells" at the same time as you justify a war thats killed nearly 100,000. We are not world police. You would have us save others lives at the expense of our own AND THEIRS.  Your strategy fails to protect us, fails to protect others, sinks our economy, and  turns the tide of global opinion AGAINST us in the same global world that you seem so concerned about.  You seem to think that a good argument for war is that "those bastards deserve it." But if we don't consider the consequences, then we are acting ignorantly and we are WRONG.

But your prophetic language is unsupported. If anything I think that the truth of the matter is that the tide of opinion is turning away from your position.

33
General Off-Topic Board / Re: iraq timetable
« on: August 29, 2008, 07:53:27 PM »
Your argument that the war in iraq was justified because it prevented genocide is bankrupt.

Most estimates of the number of kurds killed by saddam's genocide fall in the range of 50,000 to 100,000, while there have been over 80,000 documented CIVILIAN deaths in the war in Iraq. This doesn't sound like we've done much to help these people at all. War as an instrument of peace is absurd and ineffective.

If we're going to fight genocide why don't we start by addressing the actions of Shell (a company subsidized by the U.S.) in Nigeria? My point isn't that we should sit by why genocide occurs but that:

1) War and bombing as methods of stopping genocide do not generally work - and were only justified in the case of the nazi regime because of the scale of the problem and the sheer force of the enemy. In Iraq, we have only made the problem worse, not to mention seriously tarnished the reputation of our country in the region. We have gone from a representative of freedom and hope to a force of violence.

2) Even if we assume that war can work as a tool against genocide, why are some genocides so urgent that we must send in forces and others (those which fighting would be counter to our interests) are not?

The military should be used to counter direct threats on the security of this country.


34
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Pragmatism?
« on: August 27, 2008, 04:22:41 PM »
I asked too soon - having only read the intro to Posner's book. He does a great job of defining what he means in the first chapter:

"Pragmatism...the word refers to basing judgments (legal or otherwise) on consequences, rather than on deduction from premises in the manner of a syllogism. Pragmatism bears a family resemblance to utilitarianism and, in a commercial society like ours, to welfare economics, but without a commitment to the specific ways in which those philosophies evaluate consequences. In law, pragmatism refers to basing a judicial decision on the effects the decision is likely to have, rather than on the language of a statute or of a case, or more generally on a preexisting rule. So it is the opposite of legalism."

Posner, How Judges Think. (40).

35
General Off-Topic Board / Re: iraq timetable
« on: August 27, 2008, 04:12:21 PM »
so, if obama supposedly naive and irresponsible for proposing timetable withdraw iraq, then what that make gump and condy rice?

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hcWJu9bbzrJZ7uNHjvMn0BuTGqHQD92MMK382

 :D :D :D :D

hey archie...why u bigots all same?  ;)

listen stupid, what this mean...surge worked...kurds empowered...check the date...

aye believe it is "08" not "07" or "06"...

remember the dems back in those days wanted to divulge the strategy? give everyone a timetable in the middle of the operation...that is what is naive.

bush won argument...mccain's surge worked and now it is summer almost fall "08"...things are very different in mesopoetamia now...

aside from picking up a history book once in a while...perhaps purchasing and regarding a "2008" calendar might help as well...

and didn't aye tell you many moons ago that bush would probably be the first one to start having troops come home?








p.s. put the bottle down...and stop drinking, my man...

Never.

And by the way, I don't understand how you can say that we're not still in the middle of the operation. We're still in a war, how will the effects of setting a time table now be any different from before? If you think "empowered Kurds" will make any difference in a country where they are a miniscule minority you are ignorant. The Iraqis are still incapable of handling their own security, and our leaving will still lead to massive instability in the country.  The truth is that most dems (and now most pubs as well) want to get out of Iraq in spite of this fact. If our goal were really to ensure stability in Iraq, then we would need to be there another five years at least and stage operations in Iran as well.

The real mission is and always was to destabilize Iraq to the point where they would think about bombing each other instead of us - and though this was a counterproductive mission, Bush was right that we had accomplished our mission long ago. All our presence is doing now is ensuring that if and when the country finally does stabilize, they will all hate us.

you obviously don't understand the region of mesopoetamia...and you sure as hell don't understand anything about the kurds...in northern iraq...4 to 6 million kurds...in turkey 10 to 16 million...in iran 5 to 6.6 million and in syria .9 to 3 million...

take a trip to northern mesopoetamia "northern iraq" and tell me how those people are doing? go to irbil...zakhu...dahuk...kirku k...atrush...go see who is in charge there...better yet...instead of going there...google the names and read about them...check out kurdish newspaper, my man

you also do not understand what a military "operation" is...for example: in the "Gulf War" how many operations were there?  how stabilized is that region?  do some research...


after you do some research about divulging strategy in the middle of the battle...after you find out who lives in iraq and how they are doing today...compared to living under a genocidal dictator and his sons...get back to me.



Oh, I don't agree with you so I must be ill-informed.  ::)

And are you actually arguing that there is no military operation going on in Iraq at present?

aye don't care that you don't agree with me...but you are "ill-informed"...

there have been many military operation in mesopoetamia and one of many going on right now...yes...

if you were informed you would know for example who the kurds are...and where they live and how they live today vs. under hussein and company...

aye don't think you even know who they are...sorry...aye do think you are less informed than aye am...you can disagree with me...aye could care less...aye do think you  might be a "dove-seller"...and you guys are out of the picture now...sorry.


if you guys weren't selling so many doves...we might have been able to send some help to darfur.

For what reason do you assume that I don't know who the Kurds are? You are a jackass. I know - and openly admit, and have never contested - that the Kurds in Iraq are living MUCH better now than they were under "Hussein and company." My original point - which you would know if you took the time to even closely read the posts of those who disagree with you - was that this better standard of living for the Kurds - and for Iraq as a whole - was not going to be sustainable once the US leaves; and, furthermore, that both dems and pubs know this and don't really care that much anymore.

Furthermore, you suggested that I didn't know what an "operation" was, which is also ludicrous. The only reason that I referred to it as 'the' - as opposed to 'an' -  operation is because this is how you referred to it in your original post - where you suggested that it was naive to discuss our plans for leaving while we were still in the middle of "the operation." Since you openly admit that we are now still engaging in operations, I repeat my question: How is making a timetable now any different from a couple of years ago? We are still in the middle of operations, and according to your logic, would still be "divulging strategy in the middle of [an] operation."




don't get upset...man...so we are in agreement...you know who the kurds are and what we have accomplished in mesopoetamia...good..relax...

a timetable can be discussed now because the status of the situation has changed...the surge worked...however the operations nature was different back in 2006 and 2007 and utmost secrecy was primo...a timetable would have been divulging strategy...not wise in the middle of in-coming fire, my man...

We're not in agreement, as evidenced by the fact that you are say we have "accomplished" something.

The truth is that we have accomplished nothing. Once we leave, things will get worse for the Kurds. And even if we assumed that the improvement for the Kurds was permanent, it is almost unarguable that life, at present, is actually much worse for the majority  of Iraqis - outside of the Kurds - than it was when we invaded. Better than it was a couple years ago? Definitely - hence the misleading argument for the "success" of the surge. The most successful part of a failed war is still a failure. Furthermore, we have actually made Iraq, I believe, more of a danger to our national security by invading than they would have otherwise been had we taken other, non-military, routes.

This war has been a debacle, period.

36
General Off-Topic Board / Re: iraq timetable
« on: August 27, 2008, 03:37:33 PM »
so, if obama supposedly naive and irresponsible for proposing timetable withdraw iraq, then what that make gump and condy rice?

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hcWJu9bbzrJZ7uNHjvMn0BuTGqHQD92MMK382

 :D :D :D :D

hey archie...why u bigots all same?  ;)

listen stupid, what this mean...surge worked...kurds empowered...check the date...

aye believe it is "08" not "07" or "06"...

remember the dems back in those days wanted to divulge the strategy? give everyone a timetable in the middle of the operation...that is what is naive.

bush won argument...mccain's surge worked and now it is summer almost fall "08"...things are very different in mesopoetamia now...

aside from picking up a history book once in a while...perhaps purchasing and regarding a "2008" calendar might help as well...

and didn't aye tell you many moons ago that bush would probably be the first one to start having troops come home?








p.s. put the bottle down...and stop drinking, my man...

Never.

And by the way, I don't understand how you can say that we're not still in the middle of the operation. We're still in a war, how will the effects of setting a time table now be any different from before? If you think "empowered Kurds" will make any difference in a country where they are a miniscule minority you are ignorant. The Iraqis are still incapable of handling their own security, and our leaving will still lead to massive instability in the country.  The truth is that most dems (and now most pubs as well) want to get out of Iraq in spite of this fact. If our goal were really to ensure stability in Iraq, then we would need to be there another five years at least and stage operations in Iran as well.

The real mission is and always was to destabilize Iraq to the point where they would think about bombing each other instead of us - and though this was a counterproductive mission, Bush was right that we had accomplished our mission long ago. All our presence is doing now is ensuring that if and when the country finally does stabilize, they will all hate us.

you obviously don't understand the region of mesopoetamia...and you sure as hell don't understand anything about the kurds...in northern iraq...4 to 6 million kurds...in turkey 10 to 16 million...in iran 5 to 6.6 million and in syria .9 to 3 million...

take a trip to northern mesopoetamia "northern iraq" and tell me how those people are doing? go to irbil...zakhu...dahuk...kirku k...atrush...go see who is in charge there...better yet...instead of going there...google the names and read about them...check out kurdish newspaper, my man

you also do not understand what a military "operation" is...for example: in the "Gulf War" how many operations were there?  how stabilized is that region?  do some research...


after you do some research about divulging strategy in the middle of the battle...after you find out who lives in iraq and how they are doing today...compared to living under a genocidal dictator and his sons...get back to me.



Oh, I don't agree with you so I must be ill-informed.  ::)

And are you actually arguing that there is no military operation going on in Iraq at present?

aye don't care that you don't agree with me...but you are "ill-informed"...

there have been many military operation in mesopoetamia and one of many going on right now...yes...

if you were informed you would know for example who the kurds are...and where they live and how they live today vs. under hussein and company...

aye don't think you even know who they are...sorry...aye do think you are less informed than aye am...you can disagree with me...aye could care less...aye do think you  might be a "dove-seller"...and you guys are out of the picture now...sorry.


if you guys weren't selling so many doves...we might have been able to send some help to darfur.

For what reason do you assume that I don't know who the Kurds are? You are a jackass. I know - and openly admit, and have never contested - that the Kurds in Iraq are living MUCH better now than they were under "Hussein and company." My original point - which you would know if you took the time to even closely read the posts of those who disagree with you - was that this better standard of living for the Kurds - and for Iraq as a whole - was not going to be sustainable once the US leaves; and, furthermore, that both dems and pubs know this and don't really care that much anymore.

Furthermore, you suggested that I didn't know what an "operation" was, which is also ludicrous. The only reason that I referred to it as 'the' - as opposed to 'an' -  operation is because this is how you referred to it in your original post - where you suggested that it was naive to discuss our plans for leaving while we were still in the middle of "the operation." Since you openly admit that we are now still engaging in operations, I repeat my question: How is making a timetable now any different from a couple of years ago? We are still in the middle of operations, and according to your logic, would still be "divulging strategy in the middle of [an] operation."



37
General Off-Topic Board / Re: iraq timetable
« on: August 27, 2008, 03:05:01 PM »
so, if obama supposedly naive and irresponsible for proposing timetable withdraw iraq, then what that make gump and condy rice?

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hcWJu9bbzrJZ7uNHjvMn0BuTGqHQD92MMK382

 :D :D :D :D

hey archie...why u bigots all same?  ;)

listen stupid, what this mean...surge worked...kurds empowered...check the date...

aye believe it is "08" not "07" or "06"...

remember the dems back in those days wanted to divulge the strategy? give everyone a timetable in the middle of the operation...that is what is naive.

bush won argument...mccain's surge worked and now it is summer almost fall "08"...things are very different in mesopoetamia now...

aside from picking up a history book once in a while...perhaps purchasing and regarding a "2008" calendar might help as well...

and didn't aye tell you many moons ago that bush would probably be the first one to start having troops come home?








p.s. put the bottle down...and stop drinking, my man...

Never.

And by the way, I don't understand how you can say that we're not still in the middle of the operation. We're still in a war, how will the effects of setting a time table now be any different from before? If you think "empowered Kurds" will make any difference in a country where they are a miniscule minority you are ignorant. The Iraqis are still incapable of handling their own security, and our leaving will still lead to massive instability in the country.  The truth is that most dems (and now most pubs as well) want to get out of Iraq in spite of this fact. If our goal were really to ensure stability in Iraq, then we would need to be there another five years at least and stage operations in Iran as well.

The real mission is and always was to destabilize Iraq to the point where they would think about bombing each other instead of us - and though this was a counterproductive mission, Bush was right that we had accomplished our mission long ago. All our presence is doing now is ensuring that if and when the country finally does stabilize, they will all hate us.

you obviously don't understand the region of mesopoetamia...and you sure as hell don't understand anything about the kurds...in northern iraq...4 to 6 million kurds...in turkey 10 to 16 million...in iran 5 to 6.6 million and in syria .9 to 3 million...

take a trip to northern mesopoetamia "northern iraq" and tell me how those people are doing? go to irbil...zakhu...dahuk...kirku k...atrush...go see who is in charge there...better yet...instead of going there...google the names and read about them...check out kurdish newspaper, my man

you also do not understand what a military "operation" is...for example: in the "Gulf War" how many operations were there?  how stabilized is that region?  do some research...


after you do some research about divulging strategy in the middle of the battle...after you find out who lives in iraq and how they are doing today...compared to living under a genocidal dictator and his sons...get back to me.



Oh, I don't agree with you so I must be ill-informed.  ::)

And are you actually arguing that there is no military operation going on in Iraq at present?

38
MTG also has some really good posts. i think the best advice i can give you is to not freak out. i did first quarter and those were my lowest grades (although maybe everyone else freaked out even more than me?). even if you're in the bottom of the class, if you're not a complete doofus and don't wear sweatpants to OCI, you'll get a job.

Damn, there go my chances.

39
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Pragmatism?
« on: August 25, 2008, 05:58:42 PM »
10-4

40
me too


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