Quote from: cwhelan on July 01, 2008, 10:40:49 AM

Oh man. Right, wrong, yeah. We've been funding Musharraf who has been undemocratic AND a bad leader. He declared a truce with the radicals in the mountains that allowed them to regroup stronger than ever. He's wishywashy and hasn't committed to anything. Why even try.
Also, the lack of knowledge all you 'patriots' have is disgusting. Do you realize that we just spent 400 million dollars (this just came out in the past week) on covert operations and 'destabilization' in Iran? They have REASON to believe we want war with them because we're funding their political dissidents and trying to negotiate hit jobs on their leaders. Nevermind whether they are a good government or  bad government, they are fairly legitimate and we can't really fight their crimes by trying to subvert them. When we toss out the values we purport to defend, we lose all weight in the fight. It no longer matters who wins.
Henry Kissinger and other similar  men are still remembered as practical war criminals in South America. Time and time again, in Guatemala, El Salvador, Argentina, Chile, socialist leaders have won democratic elections over the past decades. What do we do? Pump money (like in the Iran-Contra scandal, to the right-wing Contras of el salvador) into rightwing paramilitary groups and dictators, helping them defeat the democratically elected leftists, all in the name of fighting communism... and protecting swish business deals.
In Guatemala, the United Fruit Company was so tight with the government in the 50s that if a local could not pay taxes, he was subject to working 150 days a year not to the government, but to UFC. And UFC was closely tied to the US government.. indeed, a later head of the CIA was previously in charge of the UFC. Just one example of the collusion of power, money, and rightism. We forget, we FORGET the impression we have left in other countries, then we act shocked and appalled when we get illegal immigrants fleeing the economic destruction we have wreaked (we have so many el salvadorans and the MS-13 because they fled the 10 year civil war reagan's right wing funding set off).

And in Iran, we forget that in the 80s, we supported Iraq(yes, IRAQ) publicly while secretly selling Iran weapons and giving the proceeds to the El Salvadorans in the Iran-Contra scandal. The Iranians remember this, they remember our willingness to declare our support against their enemies while selling them weapons on the side, and they remember it all and don't forget- they cannot trust the United States, not even as a partner, let alone someone to come in and tell them how to run their country. Let alone the fact that Ahmenwhatever is actually a presidential figurehead, but not a real leader- the Ayatollah is in charge. They just use their president to poke at us and make us angry.

Iran is a place of political repression and violence and oppression of minorities, but America has lost any ability to dictate change in the region. We have no credibility.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of truth to what you're saying.  But, there are nuances, as always.  Not every democratically elected government is necessarily the best for its own people.  Frankly, the unenlightened, uneducated masses are not equipped to know what's best for themselves (that's why they elect the likes of George W. Bush).  Unfortunately, there is nobody above the US of A to install a "friendly" regime, like we can do in Nicaragua or even Colombia. 

My problem with your argument is that not every "legitimate" government necessarily has a moral right to govern.  A regime that hangs women for failing to wear head-scarves is morally corrupt.  As is a regime that sponsors illegal drug trade, like most of the leftist regimes in the Latin America do.  Let's not forget one thing - Social Democrats were ELECTED in Germany in 1932.  The Germans paid a heavy price for their "mistake", as they well should've. 

I, personally, don't think that we should fight Iran.  Iranians are not Arabs, they can be reasoned with and even trusted.  Most of them are sick and tired of the ayatollahs' rule.  If the American intelligence elite hadn't been decimated by the maniacal incompetence of this administration, we could make efforts to overthrow the Iranian regime through support of their resistance and similar measures.  However, your argument that they have a right to hate us because we intervene with their  business, doesn't not stand scrutiny.  If we don't intervene, who will? 

I grew up in the Soviet Union and even though I consider myself fairly liberal, I never forget that fighting for freedom is a noble cause.  Even if you need to exhibit some toughness which for some screwed up reason most associate with "red blooded" "patriotic" Americans.