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Messages - UNAS

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91
You realize how perverse Sowell's argument is when it's white people attacking black people who dare to venture it what used to be fairly exclusively white territory.  Whatever fake statistics he's going to quote will reflect the legal system's violence towards black men in reporting and prosecution.  Sure, AA will cause increased racial conflict, but it's likely going to be conflict from the group that is losing some power manifested towards the group that is trying to gain some equality.  That's why struggles for equality are hard and a desire to avoid all conflict is a desire to never disrupt the status quo.

The problem with AA is precisely that it turns processes (school admissions, government hirings, government contracts) that had previously been not-necessarily influenced by political considerations into processes that definitely are influenced by political considerations. Increasing how much political considerations influence these processes provides people applying to these processes a stronger incentive to pursue political influence, which may distract from applicants pursuing the knowledge or skills that would normally allow them to better compete for positions in the absence of these considerations. And greater knowledge and skills of applicants would improve how much the applicants could learn from, or contribute to, the institution, while political influence does no such thing.

Furthermore, if you define the rule of law as applying an equal set of standards to all people under its rule, then since AA requires the application of different standards to different groups of people, AA is in conflict with the principle of the rule of law.

Since part of the appeal of the rule of law is that its enforcement does not favor particular groups (that is, justice is blind), and this appeal is part of the reason why people follow the rule of law without the need for stronger measures of enforcement, then if AA policies that conflict with the rule of law are implemented, the subsequent reduction in the appeal of the principle may require stronger enforcement to yield the same level of civil peace. Stronger enforcement requires a judiciary that more often encroaches on personal matters, which, in turn, reduces the amount of freedom of the people in the society of its jurisdiction.

On a side note, I don't think crime statistics are necessarily inaccurate. More Black people being arrested and prosecuted isn't necessarily because the police or prosecutors are selectively targeting Blacks; it may be because Black people are committing more crimes. Heather McDonald made this argument in one of her books (which I admit I haven't read). Both factors may play a role in the disproportionate presence of Blacks in reported crime statistics, so I think to come up with anything more than a tentative opinion on how much more one factor plays in the ex post results than the other, one must examine both possibilities, which I doubt you have done (of course, I could be wrong with this doubt).

(FYI, I myself haven't come up with anything more than a tentative opinion on this matter, so please sheath your rhetorical sword.)

I have come to the conclusion that PsuedoNym uses the rope-a-dope method of arguing. Guess what, he won. Simply put, my young Asian brother or sister is turning this debate into a battle of endurance. I am recusing myself with aplomb. My head is bloody but unbowed.

92
Affirmative Action / Re: No more AA at Michigan Law?
« on: August 24, 2007, 09:22:31 PM »
I would submit to you that those individuals with 170s are at a school where an underlying culture of cooperation and permisivness is present. Any person White, Black or otherwise thats has a GPA exceeding a 3.6 would probably suceed at any law school despite an LSAT under the 25% mean.

You know distinguishing meaningful utterances from nonsense is not a trivial task.  I know that you were trying to contradict me, but you needn't bother.  I'm talking specifically about the 6 or 7 people I know who scored in the 170s on their LSAT and went on to excel at law school.  They didn't all attend the same law school.  I have to disagree with your point about GPA.  Some schools have an underlying culture of cooperation and permissiveness, thus making it easier to get a high GPA.

I agree with you. Typically the type of student that earns such a score on the lsat attends a law school that has attrition rate of damn near next to nothing.

93
Affirmative Action / Re: No more AA at Michigan Law?
« on: August 24, 2007, 05:24:01 PM »
I would submit to you that those individuals with 170s are at a school where an underlying culture of cooperation and permisivness is present. Any person White, Black or otherwise thats has a GPA exceeding a 3.6 would probably suceed at any law school despite an LSAT under the 25% mean.

95
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

John Galbraith

The single most potent argument against conservatism

what about if people are okay with selfishness?  what then?

Thats easy...were screwed

96
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

John Galbraith

The single most potent argument against conservatism

97
Are you familiar with what some people call a “glass ceiling”.

the jews seem to have broken through it.  difference between them, other groups?  (i have an answer in mind, but i'm curious as to whether people think the same thing i do.)

For starters they look almost entirely like Whites Christian counterparts which makes for an almost seamless assimilation. Any other characteristics such as their last name or religion they can change or hide to avoid discrimination and prejudice. They also received reparations from the holocaust between 4-6 billion.

For that matter "US paid 1.6 Billion to Japanese Americans for 4 years and paid Black People $0 for 400 years of forced labor"

98

You know what, the human brain never ceases to amaze me. Here we have an Asian chap who writes quite eloquently, but can not seem to comprehend the rationale behind AA. As an Asian-American wouldn't your energy be better committed to issues related to consistently out-performing all other races academically, yet the boardrooms, chief executives and high positioned goverment officials are incongrous to the academic accolades you all have made as a race of people.

I guess that is neither here nor there. Consider that you are asking us refute a book full of anecdotal evidence and self loathing. As a African-American I can assure you that one thing we are experts at identifying is self loathing Negroes. Hell, 500 years of torment and oppression yields such occurences no matter the modern cultural contras randomly coming about by black nationalism to reverse such damage.

By the way your gems about slavery contain some distortions. Sub-Saharan Africa implies quite a large region. This was not the case. Most slaves decended from not just West Africa, but morethe region surrounding the Congo. Secondly, it is common knowledge the African slavery was generally thought of us indentured servitude, not the systemic corroding of a person's self image, identity and culture/history (e.g.cutting off genitalia, amputation, theft, educating us to be inferior...etc). I could go on, but you get the idea. It is disturbing to know that a person of color seems to be completely oblivious to the systemic discrimination in place that prevents the very individual promoting a color blind standardized merit based system. @#!* anecdotal, lets go with empirical. The vault 100 partners are clearly visible on their respective firm's website; you tell me how many Asian partners you see. Maybe then you will realize that AA is not only appropriate, but the country lacks more social doorstops than you originally thougt.

Please explain how my being Asian somehow invalidates my arguments that AA policies will result in deleterious consequences for the favored classes.

Everything you wrote above is largely incongruous to addressing that argument.

Wouldn't addressing the argument do more to address the argument than making patronizing remarks about the person making the argument? Or does your dismissive patronization betray a lack of ability to address the arguments, therefore you hope that said patronization will distract observers from your ability to perform?

Have you read Sowell's book? How do you know it's full of self-loathing? Do you have some kind of mystical mind-reading ability? Or are you arbitrarily defining people holding contrary positions as self-loathing in order to call doubt upon their arguments without addressing the facts or validity of said arguments?

I could define you as a Shining-Path Commie, but I haven't. At least in this post, I'm making an effort to substantially respond to what you've written.

And...

How does calling Sub-Saharan Africa "Sub-Saharan Africa" in any way imply that it's a large region? That's what the region's always been called.

Furthermore, I had brought up the prevalence of the slave trade in Africa to show that its primary perpetrators were black Africans. I'm not sure how your characterization of African's attitudes towards the slave trade as an exercise in indentured servitude challenges the truth of that fact. And I sincerely doubt that even if African slavery were similar to indentured servitude (something that I don't know enough about to contest), I doubt that the indentured servants would be allowed to maintain their old cultures upon release from their temporary servitude.

FWIW, the Arabs were the ones who took black women as concubines and black men as eunuchs. Compared to what the Arabs were doing to their slaves, the Europeans were pretty tame (although that doesn't morally justify slavery).

And...

The lack of Asian partners at vault-100 firms doesn't suggest that systemic discrimination is at play. Other factors may have played a role.

Growing up in Silicon Valley in a largely Asian area, I can attest that most Asians studied engineering or the natural sciences. Most of these students went on to work as engineers, businesspeople, doctors, dentists, or researchers. The lack of prominent lawyers isn't indicative of systemic discrimination if Asians have historically prioritized admittance into other professions.

My pre-law advisor mentioned that it has only been within the last 5-8 years that Asians have applied to law schools in more than minute numbers. If her testimony on this matter can be applied to most undergraduate institutions, then the lack of Asians amongst vault-100 partners can also be explained by the lack of Asian lawyers experienced enough to make partner in these firms.

I don't doubt that some doors are blocked for some people, but seeing that it's impossible to actually gauge how much discrimination exists, it's impossible to tailor a standardized program that would address discrimination in all its possible individual cases, and AA causes more problems than it solves (possibly even causing more discrimination as a backlash against favored groups receiving privileged treatment due to unequal standards), AA doesn't strike me as a very wise policy.

I love it. I love it.

You being Asian doesn’t invalidate your arguments and furthermore to suggest that AA will have “deleterious” consequences is a gratuitous use of the English language. Even in the most extreme circumstance I would submit to you AA would have negligible adverse consequences at best. Many of the consequences you have outlined in your previous post would exist with or without AA. Discrediting Black folks because of AA, would merely turn into discrediting Blacks due to neighborhood they grew up in, maybe even undergraduate institution, clothes we wear, hairstyle or some other BS.

No I have not read Sowell’s book COMPLETELY, but I am familiar enough with it to make educated commentary. When it comes to mystical ability I would define it more so as intuition with a very low coefficient of error as it relates to detecting self loathing Blacks.

Incidentally, I have a more socialist lean.

Sub Saharan Africa by definition is the area below the Sahara. That’s roughly ¾ of Africa.

I brought up the slave trade because you brought up the slave trade. I don’t think you were trying to trivialize it, but there seem to consequences stemming from the slave trade that for one reason or another you can’t link to Blacks folks here and now despite them being conspicuous to most Black folks. That’s gap you will have to bridge on your own.

I will accept your accept your premise for lack of Asian partners, but I will assure you that 5-10 years from now there will still be a disproportionately small number of Asian partners. You mentioned business men, doctors and engineers; maybe its me but I haven’t seen even the slightest prevalence of Asian chief executives in the Fortune 1000. Are you familiar with what some people call a “glass ceiling”. There is no shortage of smaller businesses and engineering firms headed by Asians I am certain, but again you seem to be wearing blinders.

“I don't doubt that some doors are blocked for some people, but seeing that it's impossible to actually gauge how much discrimination exists, it's impossible to tailor a standardized program that would address discrimination in all its possible individual cases, and AA causes more problems than it solves (possibly even causing more discrimination as a backlash against favored groups receiving privileged treatment due to unequal standards), AA doesn't strike me as a very wise policy.”

I love it. The mere fact that you made this comment demonstrates the need for AA.  If it is impossible to gauge exactly how much discrimination exists yet everyone is cognizant of its pervasiveness it would be foolish to abolish a program that combats it. The fact it is not iron clad does not invalidate it. AA came about to reverse instances where less qualified Whites were being selected over more qualified Blacks, Indians…etc.  I think  it is quite convenient you haven’t brought that up. Ergo the “quota”.

99
Pardon my spelling or grammar but its 1:30

100
Remind me again of the link between a medical student being qualified enough to be admitted into Harvard, even with the help of affirmative action, and being underqualified to practice medicine (assuming he graduated).

I do remember Sowell saying that he heard from friends within Harvard's administration and professorate that HMS had a policy of never failing black students. Combine that policy with a policy of admitting black students who don't mean normal HMS admissions standards and you have the makings of underqualified graduates.


Also, it seems to me that if affirmative action were removed this student would still have most likely been admitted to at least a reputable state medical school, and again assuming he graduated, would still be practicing medicine. So are you insinuating that Harvard graduated him when they shouldn't have? Or that difference in medical education between Harvard and State U results in more doctor-caused deaths (since Black Doctor was probably qualified to attend State U, but not Harvard)?


Well, if the doctor in this case hadn't attended HMS, but had attended a state school, he might have been learning medicine at a pace and depth for which he was more suited (a friend of mine at HMS says the pace is ridiculously frenetic, so you have to be on your toes if you want to learn it all). If he had been learning medicine at a slower pace and in less depth in a state school than what he would have been expected to learn at Harvard, it's possible that the doctor in this case would have learned more, rather than less, reducing the chance that he would screw up.

Furthermore, the doctor might not have been performing the surgery in which he screwed up. He may have gone into radiology or anesthesiology instead, which would have benefitted the hapless patient in this case.

You obviously know very little about medical specialties. An anesthesiologist could easily send a patient to glory by administering anesthesia in incorrect amounts.  You seem to have a lot of time on your hands b/c you constantly attempt to awe us with your endless cant on AA and its intrinsic flaws.

My suggestion? Research the different medical specialties.  I'm sure you'll find that Internal Medicine is one of the "easier" ones.

Well, if anesthesiology is indeed more difficult than surgery, then I've made a flawed assumption. But the point I'm trying to make is that if the doctor in this case had gone into a different field, one which was simpler than surgery, he might not have botched the procedure. If anesthesiology is more difficult than surgery, you could swap it with a field that is easier than surgery and my argument would still apply.

In addition, I highly doubt all practicioners of Internal Medicine become surgeons, so there's room in that field for non-surgeons as well.

I'm here to discuss the issue. If I didn't want to discuss the issue, I would stop posting. I'm assuming that you're here to discuss AA as well. If that is so, what would insinuating that "I have a lot of time on my hands" serve to forward the discussion of AA?

You know what, the human brain never ceases to amaze me. Here we have an Asian chap who writes quite eloquently, but can not seem to comprehend the rationale behind AA. As an Asian-American wouldn't your energy be better committed to issues related to consistently out-performing all other races academically, yet the boardrooms, chief executives and high positioned goverment officials are incongrous to the academic accolades you all have made as a race of people.

I guess that is neither here nor there. Consider that you are asking us refute a book full of anecdotal evidence and self loathing. As a African-American I can assure you that one thing we are experts at identifying is self loathing Negroes. Hell, 500 years of torment and oppression yields such occurences no matter the modern cultural contras randomly coming about by black nationalism to reverse such damage.

By the way your gems about slavery contain some distortions. Sub-Saharan Africa implies quite a large region. This was not the case. Most slaves decended from not just West Africa, but morethe region surrounding the Congo. Secondly, it is common knowledge the African slavery was generally thought of us indentured servitude, not the systemic corroding of a person's self image, identity and culture/history (e.g.cutting off genitalia, amputation, theft, educating us to be inferior...etc). I could go on, but you get the idea. It is disturbing to know that a person of color seems to be completely oblivious to the systemic discrimination in place that prevents the very individual promoting a color blind standardized merit based system. @#!* anecdotal, lets go with empirical. The vault 100 partners are clearly visible on their respective firm's website; you tell me how many Asian partners you see. Maybe then you will realize that AA is not only appropriate, but the country lacks more social doorstops than you originally thougt.

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