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81
Affirmative Action / Re: Frederick Douglass
« on: September 04, 2007, 10:43:36 AM »
Southern Democrats= typically equal Republicans

I least they did once upon a time. Some of them might not have gotten the memo they were suppose to switch

82
Affirmative Action / Re: AA: More harm than good?
« on: September 04, 2007, 10:27:12 AM »
That's really sad.  We need more minorities in the law profession.  I could check the URM box myself - I'm half Mexican, but I think I got the LSAT score I deserve, and will attend a school where I can excel.  It's sad that minorities who check that box end up dropping out because they can't keep up.  If the differnce is getting into law school or not, I can see why they do it, but if you get a 165 on your LSAT, HYS are going to chew you up and spit you out. 

You should revisit this comment. Across the board attrition rates for top schools (i.e. T6-T10)schools are less then 1%. Top school have indicated that most people that drop out almost always do so for non-academic reasons. Just figured I would dispel that myth before it spiraled out of control

Will URMs with a less than median LSATs have to work a lil harder? Maybe/maybe not. But to say they will get chewed up and spit out is a complete and total falsehood. Particularly if you base it on the nations leading law schools' attrition numbers.

83
Affirmative Action / Re: Frederick Douglass
« on: September 03, 2007, 02:56:16 AM »
You are quoting a man who was a former slave. You do realize that. If you are not conscientious enough to understand his frustration when writing this, then I would suggest you throw yourself a bone and try practicing a lil empathy. If you were tormented and harassed beyond the very fiber that holds you together as sentient being you would want your opressor to leave you the hell alone as well.

I have been in situations where either my "betters" or "tormentors" spent significant time imposing their ideas upon my particular circumstances. I can empathize with with what Douglass is saying, but I think the two of us disagree not on the likely emotional state of Douglass when he said this statement, but on the substantiative content of the statement itself.

According to the literal text of this statement, Douglass is asking for the chance for blacks to prove their worth, RATHER THAN asking for help.

Quote
If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also.

Douglas explicitly advocates against "tying or fastening them on the tree in any way," a statement from which I assume he advocates against the ministrations of well-meaning people towards the black population of his time. It is because of the history of this particular era that I think this advocation against assistance is so compelling.

By the way PN you are certainly a formidable opponent with regards to this debate, but I honestly think further dialogue would be better left exercised vocally. I would welcome my future law school to have such a debate. That is of course after we debate more pressing moral issues that affect the very livelihood of mankind (i.e. suspending habeus corpus, spying on law abiding citizens, incompetence & indolence of rebuilding new orleans, occupying a foreign territory, voter intimidation and ballot fraud)  . Pardon my sarcasm, but I think debate on AA should be the last item eaten when we set down at the round table for the great meal of morality and injustice.

Well, I'm not sure what any of the things you mention have to do with what Frederick Douglass said.

FWIW, in inflation-adjusted dollars, more money has been poured into New Orleans than was poured into all of Europe via the Marshall plan.

I will only respond to the katrina comment. You are absolutely positively correct. We have spent a total of 127 billion dollars on katrina which is about 40 billion more than we spent on the marshall plan. the gross gdp of new orleans is only 141 billion. It seems only about 25 billion or so went to sources for which we can modestly account (army core engineers, housing relief) the rest went to subsidiaries of haliburton and other large firms which by the way have a "labor" work force made up entirely of illegals.

In other words, the money went to the only companies that could efficiently do the work, with no actual connections to the administration, and they did so on an efficient basis.  (The idea their work force, labor or otherwise, is make up entirely of illegals is patently false.)


I don't know how far you lean to the right, but you and i know there has been a gross mismanagement of katrina relief. Whatsmore, is it has been done under neocon leadership.

Well, let's be grateful it was done under neocon leadership -- there obviously would have been far more waste and mismanagement under "liberal" leadership, which is generally more concerned with spreading wealth around to political supporters than actually accomplishing anything.

All government action is inefficient and wasteful -- liberal action is simply exponentially worse, because they don't even try to be efficient, and have no idea how to actually accomplish anything at all in the real world.

dear brother lindberg you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. as someone who has worked for both bechtel, halliburton, and centex as a project engineer I can assure you that the labor force is indeed prodiminantly illegal. i will gladly say that the project management is made up almost entirely of university educated americans, but the those individuals doing survey work, nailing the two by fours and all other rudimentary engineering tasks are almost entirely illegal. Let me be fair. Hell, the entire general contacting, construction project management and civil engineering industry uses illegals as the majority labor force. This should be nothing new to you.

And halliburton is not the only contractor that can do the work, certainly you don't believe that. There is nothing particularly unique about the environment (such would be the case with  california, iraq..israel...nevada) that would require halliburton's specialties. I can throw you a bone with Iraq, but as someone who has worked for them and received a formal education in construction management i think your comments are a little short sighted.

everyone knows cheney still has ties with halliburton don't be naive

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/politics/main575356.shtml

additionally, new orleans has been traditionally democratic but at the state level louisiana was, is and always will be a red state. you and i both know that.

84
Affirmative Action / Re: Frederick Douglass
« on: September 02, 2007, 04:32:07 PM »
You are quoting a man who was a former slave. You do realize that. If you are not conscientious enough to understand his frustration when writing this, then I would suggest you throw yourself a bone and try practicing a lil empathy. If you were tormented and harassed beyond the very fiber that holds you together as sentient being you would want your opressor to leave you the hell alone as well.

I have been in situations where either my "betters" or "tormentors" spent significant time imposing their ideas upon my particular circumstances. I can empathize with with what Douglass is saying, but I think the two of us disagree not on the likely emotional state of Douglass when he said this statement, but on the substantiative content of the statement itself.

According to the literal text of this statement, Douglass is asking for the chance for blacks to prove their worth, RATHER THAN asking for help.

Quote
If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also.

Douglas explicitly advocates against "tying or fastening them on the tree in any way," a statement from which I assume he advocates against the ministrations of well-meaning people towards the black population of his time. It is because of the history of this particular era that I think this advocation against assistance is so compelling.

By the way PN you are certainly a formidable opponent with regards to this debate, but I honestly think further dialogue would be better left exercised vocally. I would welcome my future law school to have such a debate. That is of course after we debate more pressing moral issues that affect the very livelihood of mankind (i.e. suspending habeus corpus, spying on law abiding citizens, incompetence & indolence of rebuilding new orleans, occupying a foreign territory, voter intimidation and ballot fraud)  . Pardon my sarcasm, but I think debate on AA should be the last item eaten when we set down at the round table for the great meal of morality and injustice.

Well, I'm not sure what any of the things you mention have to do with what Frederick Douglass said.

FWIW, in inflation-adjusted dollars, more money has been poured into New Orleans than was poured into all of Europe via the Marshall plan.

I will only respond to the katrina comment. You are absolutely positively correct. We have spent a total of 127 billion dollars on katrina which is about 40 billion more than we spent on the marshall plan. the gross gdp of new orleans is only 141 billion. It seems only about 25 billion or so went to sources for which we can modestly account (army core engineers, housing relief) the rest went to subsidiaries of haliburton and other large firms which by the way have a "labor" work force made up entirely of illegals. I don't know how far you lean to the right, but you and i know there has been a gross mismanagement of katrina relief. Whatsmore, is it has been done under neocon leadership.

85
This is frustrating I am about to go to Love or Ibiza

Holla

86
If he/she looks black/mixed I would check it. If she/he look like a white person with slightly tanned skin I would say no. You get discriminated because you can't hide the fact you are black. ergo, your inability to blend in.


So AA is not about cultural diversity, but simply off-setting the fact someone looks different?

In my mind cultural diversity is secondary, to the outright discrimination a person has experienced merely because of the color of their skin. Cultural diversity should not be scoffed at; but if I have people insulting my intelligence, smothering me with invectives in front of and behing my back, think of me as a criminal and are threatened by my mere existence simply because they think i am black warrants some remedy. wouldn't you agree? Maybe not to the same extent as an African American who has been the beneficiary of a piss poor public education on top of the other issue mentioned, but to an extent nonetheless

87
Affirmative Action / Re: Frederick Douglass
« on: August 31, 2007, 05:20:54 PM »
Everybody has asked the question. . ."What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!

- Frederick Douglass

You are quoting a man who was a former slave. You do realize that. If you are not conscientious enough to understand his frustration when writing this, then I would suggest you throw yourself a bone and try practicing a lil empathy. If you were tormented and harassed beyond the very fiber that holds you together as sentient being you would want your opressor to leave you the hell alone as well.

By the way PN you are certainly a formidable opponent with regards to this debate, but I honestly think further dialogue would be better left exercised vocally. I would welcome my future law school to have such a debate. That is of course after we debate more pressing moral issues that affect the very livelihood of mankind (i.e. suspending habeus corpus, spying on law abiding citizens, incompetence & indolence of rebuilding new orleans, occupying a foreign territory, voter intimidation and ballot fraud)  . Pardon my sarcasm, but I think debate on AA should be the last item eaten when we set down at the round table for the great meal of morality and injustice.

88
racial and gender equality are utopian.


In other words unattainable?

yep and so is the American Dream. Just because it's utopian doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted.


Except, of course, that most Americans appear to be living the American Deam (high standard of living, personal freedom, etc.).  Which is presumably why millions of immigrants from around the planet strive to come here. 

If you believe the other thing, however, is unattainable, it's stupid to waste time pursuing it.

What might be worth pursuing (and is far more attainable), however, is a general equality of opportunity.  Maybe we should therefore strive for that.

Appear being the keyword. It's one thing to own a home; however, many Americans (nearly half of homeowners) are saddled down with mortgages, foreclosures rates are rising, and property rights are becoming weaker and weaker.  The American dream is utopian.

I wonder if you are a Christian. If so, explain sin to me. If sin is inevitable then why resist?




Not bad

89
Affirmative Action / Re: No more AA at Michigan Law?
« on: August 29, 2007, 01:05:23 PM »
The largest issue I have with this debate is the fact that those individuals opposing affirmative action are trumping up the consequences/adverse effects of it. Though discrimination is very difficult to prove, because of the systemic controls in place to prevent such detection, it still can be unveiled (pardon my sentence structure). Perhaps republicans taking a stand against corporate lobbyist for less transparency in employer/employee relations would make evidence of discrimination available for public consumptioin. Nonetheless, at the end of the day the powers that be can always vet the compensation of a Black man, White man, White woman with similar academic and job related experience. These negligible adverse consequences you all continue mention are just that, negligible. Furthermore, instances where privileged minorities are, as you all seem to think, taking advantage of the system are few and far between.
Secondly, quotas particularly regarding employment were put in place because qualified minority candidates were often overlooked for their less qualified White counterparts. Instances of discrimination like this ran rampant, which if I am not mistaken was the root cause for AA coming in to being.

90
Affirmative Action / Re: New, Reasonable AA Proposal
« on: August 29, 2007, 11:29:55 AM »
People can be mean to you because you're black, or hispanic, or short, or ugly, or dumb, or socially inept. 

I get pulled over for driving while ugly all the time.  Also, I grew up in a systemically underfunded neighborhood where my parents paid higher taxes than the suburbs because banks had redlined the suburbs making damn sure that no uggos could move in.

Your proposal is ideal for someone who continues to refuse to see the world as it is and adheres to a bizzaro narrative about how white people got to where they are (hard work) and how the playing field is now level.

You've created this hilarious myth of advantage where only income and schooling exist.  Your world is more limited that a Disney ride and twice as conceptually bankrupt.

I was originally gonna criticize you for wasting neural kilocalories on persons who already have their minds made up, but then I realized in about 5 minutes I am about to do the exact same thing. It is almost boggling to the mind that certain individuals cannot see the world for what it is, particularly the good ole US of A.

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