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Messages - NYU2011

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11
you are right, I am wrong in that instance....but if said person was wearing the same in the North East it would not be considered professional.  It is considered professional in some parts of the south because that is what has primarily been worn there in the past as well.  My point is that it is not because it is "white people" clothing that it is considered professional


12
Quote
You are just desperately not getting it, aren't you?
I feel like this has become a mutual malady at this point. No reason to keep playing this silly game of ping-pong.

No, you are right - Basketball shorts aren't standard board-room apparel because of racism, not cultural and class expectations. How could I have been so dense?



Quite honestly, dude, you really are not getting it.  She's logically in the right here.  She got your argument, addressed it at its merits, and then countered the basic assumptions underlying it.  Your response has been to repeat the argument that she's already laid bare.


The only people that agree with her are the ones who already did.  An unbiased observer more than likely can clearly see she is wrong.

13
Sure, some of these styles originated in anglo society, but this is just how successful people dress.

You are just desperately not getting it, aren't you? "Just how" implies ex nihilo--that our understanding of a necktie  as "professional" is inherent to wrapping a pointy-ended piece of fabric around your neck. I'm challenging that. You're responding by saying it again. Do better, or step off.

And don't even start with me about Malcolm X and MLK. You know full well that clothing styles were different for all Americans in the 60s than they are now. Talk about disingenuous.


Hey Dash, as you say clothing styles were different in the 60's.  Dressed up clothes was much more the norm and carried a good connotation.  Dressed in baggy/unprofessional clothes carried a bad connotation.  Nowadays dressing in nice clothes carries a good connotation while dressing in unprofessional clothes carries a bad connotation.  Saying this has anything to do with black/white is plain ridiculous.  If you see someone dressed up in full cowboy attire do you think "wow this person is professional"?  Yet this is clothes you were much more likely to see a white wear than a black wear. 

It has nothing to do with what color of skin the person that wore it has, it has to do with how clean cut the attire looks. 

14
Its even worse at higher incomes. This happened to me Saturday. I am at the car wash getting my car detailed for spring. So Iím at the window watching the cars come through. There is a mid 30ís white guy to my left and a late 20ís early 30's black guy to my right. The place is pretty dead other than us because itís right when they opened. The white guys has typical polo type shirt and Dockers and a newspaper under his arm. Black guy has baggy pants, t-shirt and baseball cap, not gangster but, but not dressy. So in comes a brand-new 2008 Bentley Continental GT Speed with temporary tags. That s a $200k car. It goes through; I want to find out who owns it because I want to ask the guy about because Iím a car nut. I start to turn to the white guy to ask if thatís his car when he walks towards the waiting area. So I think, hmm maybe itís the black guys car.

So I go through the possibilities, maybe this guys a pro athlete, maybe heís a rap star, maybe heís a lot attendant getting the car washed for someone to pick up. Anyway, by now my cars outside so I go out front. The white guy goes up to the Bentley starts inspecting it as if he is looking for dirt they are missing while wiping it off. So I start to think wonder if this guy is a partner at a big firm, or maybe a heart surgeon or CEO of some company, or maybe a pro golfer. Just then, the car wash guy waves his hand and the white guy heads over and gets into his 2000 silver Accord. A few minutes later, the black guy comes out and gets in the Bentley. I still have no idea what either of them do for a living, but I assumed what they did based on little more than what they looked like.

Like it or not we would all likely go through the same assumptions and stereotypes I did in trying to place strangers with their cars. I would have had to go WAY down the list of possible jobs that allowed the black buy to buy that car before I got to doctor or lawyer, but the white guy based on his dress and his skin color I automatically thought he was some rich professional.

That is white privilege even at the insanely wealthy range. I donít care if youíre the most race blind person in the world, we have all seen more rich white people than rich black people, we are going to assume FIRST the expensive car belongs to the white man. Because in movies and TV and in everyday life we see white people driving expensive cars, when we see a black guy in a Ferrari its an athlete or rap star on MTV cribs.

We assume and place things on people based on our sociological perceptions and stereotypes of those people and what they can achieve, we assume things and white folks get the benefit of the doubt more than black folks. Thatís white privilege. What would I have thought if I saw that car at 2AM parked in front of my house and that same black guy was reaching into the open window or that same white guy was reaching into the open window? What would your first assumption be? Who would get the benifit of the doubt that they owned the car?
[/quote]


I do not believe your perception had much to do with skin color, it was much more based on dress.  If it was the white guy in baggy close and whatnot and the black guy all dressed up with the newspaper you probably (at least I and most others) would assume that it was the black guys car.  This shows that it isn't about your race but how you carry yourself, which many times goes along with socioeconomic status.

15
Affirmative Action / Re: AA: More harm than good?
« on: April 05, 2008, 10:17:41 AM »
wow, i'm not even going to enter this debate after this post, but if you think being a wealthy black is more disadvantageous than being a poor white you are nuts.

I bet if you took a poll no more than 5% at most of wealthy blacks would trade it all to be a poor white, while about 95% of poor whites would trade their life for a wealthy black.  Do I have proof of this, no. 

The only proof I can give you that being a wealthy black is much better than being a poor white is: OPEN YOUR EYES.

Whoa... so because someone wouldn't trade a part of their identity if they could, proves that they experience less discrimination/ oppression than the group they could trade with?? LOL at that. 

I'm gay and I wouldn't "trade it all" to be straight. Neither would about 95% of the openly gay community. That does not mean it's easier to be gay than straight in our society or that gays experience less discrimination/oppression. It's the same for any part of your identity - race included. Not wanting to "trade" who you are is a pretty pathetic way to make an argument about this.



If you would prefer your life, and they would prefer your life, then it would seem that you have the better life.  If you have the better life then why should you be given a boost at the expense of the person who seemingly has the worst life?

16
Financial Aid / Re: Graduating with debt
« on: April 04, 2008, 04:25:33 PM »
25k undergrad and then 190kish for NYU...not counting on any summer income.



This is why I had a very hard time picking between NYU and WUSTL with a scholarship that would have allowed me to graduate with under 100K in total debt.

17
Affirmative Action / Re: AA: More harm than good?
« on: April 04, 2008, 11:40:51 AM »
wow, i'm not even going to enter this debate after this post, but if you think being a wealthy black is more disadvantageous than being a poor white you are nuts.

I bet if you took a poll no more than 5% at most of wealthy blacks would trade it all to be a poor white, while about 95% of poor whites would trade their life for a wealthy black.  Do I have proof of this, no. 

The only proof I can give you that being a wealthy black is much better than being a poor white is: OPEN YOUR EYES.

18

Ghost what advantage have I ever received because I am White?

I'm white and well aware of the advantages I have because I'm white. And you are too. I'm also a woman and the daughter of working class parents who didn't go to college and yet I still realize, despite my gender/socioeconomic status, that in our society I was born on third base simply because of the color of my skin (and my parents' and their parents' and their parents'). Whatever your background may be - you were too.  But unlike you, I don't go around pretending that I hit a triple. 



What advantages? All you people talk about is "advantages you know you have."  Yet no one can name any. 

Here's a checklist for you, from sociologist Peggy McIntosh of Wellesley University:

___ 1. I can arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.  There are many communities with more black people than white people, the same goes for other minorities.  Furthermore, why does this matter unless your assuming that a majority of White's are racist toward minorities which I do not believe is the case

___ 2. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.  I do not think that a majority of minorities have been harassed and followed while going shopping any more than others.  If you go shopping in a big city there is a distinct possibility that you may be harassed by someone on the street asking for money regardless of what race you are.

___ 3. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented. [Do you actually watch TV?  Blacks are considered a minority and are on many television shows and in the paper.  Most of the items in the front page of the paper are negative things anyway, would you want to be on the front page?  I also don't know of any WET (white entertainment television) where I can see people of my race almost exclusively.[/b]

___ 4. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization", I am shown that people of my color made it what it is. "I also don't remember any "white History month" and I have heard of many blacks who helped shape our country"

___ 5. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.I dont even know what you are saying by this, I do not believe that many curricular materials say many races are not real.

___ 6. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the food I grew up with, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can deal with my hair.Really now, are you going to tell me that there are no minority music artists?  Supermarkets put up food that they can sell, and there are many supermarkets/restaurants which cater to different preferences

___ 7. Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial responsibility.again your assuming people are racist, I doubt that a majority of minorities are made fun of for using credit cards, checks, or cash.  I have never seen a store that says "Caucasians can use whatever form of currency they would like, Minorities must pay in cash"

___ 8. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing, or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.Neither are most minorities.  I will admit that there are some minorities who are generalized to "smell offensive" to other people.  I don't think it should result in said race getting rewarded in any way.

___ 9. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.This works both ways.  I worry about racism (AA) or things like a Black beauty pagent and am told I am a self-interested, self-seeking, racist

___ 10. I can take a job or enroll in a college with an affirmative action policy without having my co-workers or peers assume I got it because of my race.SO TAKE AWAY AA and you will not have this problem...oh wait I doubt you really want to do that

___ 11. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.Again I do not believe most in the business world say certain minorities are more tardy than others.

___ 12. I can choose public accommodation with out fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated.How many minorities are treated poorly in public accommodation any longer?  And there are some clubs and streets where it is not at all safe to be a white person.

___ 13. I am never asked to speak for all of the people of my racial group.Just was at the beginning of this post (although technically i'm not a WASP, but I am white

___ 14. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk with the"person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.There are plenty of minority managers and leaders.  However, being as they are a minority, there are likely fewer than those of the majority.

___ 15. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.so does this mean if a minority cop or woman cop pulls me over I can blame it on being a White male?  I just got a speeding ticket on the way back to campus for going 48 in a 35, with the 45 MPH sign literally 20 feet in front of me.

___ 16. I can easily by posters, postcards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children.s magazines featuring people of my race.again it depends on which minority you are in.  I believe business produce what there is consumer demand for.

___ 17. I can choose blemish cover or bandages in .flesh. color and have them more or less match my skin.are you kidding me!?  So start a business and make bandages that are the color of whatever your skin is if you think it will sell well enough for you to make money

___ 18. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.I have been told many times that people are surprised what I am doing with my life considering where I came from.  I believe Bearly is probably the same way.

___ 19. I can walk into a classroom and know I will not be the only member of my race.Depends on where you go to school.  There are plenty of schools that are a majority of minority students.

___ 20. I can enroll in a class at college and be sure that the majority of my professors will be of my race.Unless your insinuating that there are many racist teachers I dont understand why this is a problem.  As you are a minority it is probable that most teachers will not be of your race.

19

Ghost what advantage have I ever received because I am White?

I'm white and well aware of the advantages I have because I'm white. And you are too. I'm also a woman and the daughter of working class parents who didn't go to college and yet I still realize, despite my gender/socioeconomic status, that in our society I was born on third base simply because of the color of my skin (and my parents' and their parents' and their parents'). Whatever your background may be - you were too.  But unlike you, I don't go around pretending that I hit a triple. 



What advantages? All you people talk about is "advantages you know you have."  Yet no one can name any. 

20
I do not believe a minority is = a disadvantaged person.  There are plenty of minorities who would fall into the "advantaged" category and many White's (or Asians in the case of law school) who fall into the "disadvantaged" category.

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