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Messages - Peaches
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« on: April 11, 2008, 12:53:34 PM »
2LMan... just went through the 1L job process "in this economy" in a top law school. Some people had multiple offers (4-8 offers), some people are splitting, and about half the students in the class have firm jobs. Lots of people didn't even apply to firms, so that's not even representative of the number of people who *could* have gotten firm jobs. I think he's in good shape as a 1L at Michigan.
« on: April 11, 2008, 09:49:47 AM »
It's not "very difficult for ANY 1L to get a summer associate position." Email the career services office at Michigan and ask for the list of summer jobs 1Ls have taken this year.
But I really don't think early start gives you an appreciable advantage.
« on: April 11, 2008, 09:08:28 AM »
PSU commented this on another thread:
This isn’t to say that the critics of T3/T4 schools are totally out of the loop when it comes to students at these schools. IMO, the people from my T4 school were far more arrogant (and clueless) about the career they were pursuing than the people at my current T2 are. Many of these students bought into the idea that a law degree is a big money earner, regardless of where you go. Couple that with the fact that when you tell the common person you’re in law school, they “ooh and aah” and otherwise stroke your ego about what you’re doing and assume you’re going to be rich and successful.
Based on the people I know at a range of schools, that seems true to me.
« on: April 10, 2008, 02:01:33 AM »
Agree with RobWreck. OP should only reapply to law school if there were significant uncontrollable impediments to law school success in Round 1 that have since been completely resolved. (Caretaker for terminally ill parent, severe physical illness, mental illness that has since been resolved, effects of a rape or assault, death of a significant other or child...)
« on: April 08, 2008, 06:25:19 PM »
I have heard tell of admitted students who changed their minds calling admissions director and asking to be added to waitlists, saying that they have the deposit in hand and would attend if readmitted...
You could also do the wait a year and reapply. If you aren't happy with your choice right now, I'd worry that it is only going to go downhill from there...
« on: April 08, 2008, 05:38:36 PM »
It's also arguably a bad thing because the attorneys working criminal, divorce, bankruptcy, wills, and family law have a dramatic affect on the daily lives of people. To some of them, that interaction with their attorney could be one of the biggest determining factors in the directions their lives go in. I'm in favor of weeding out potential lawyers twice -- once with competitive law school admissions and once with the bar exam.
It's harder to become a veterinarian than a lawyer in this country.
« on: April 08, 2008, 05:32:47 PM »
Yeah, that's the midlaw myth dispelled.
Were you accepted to any T1 schools?
« on: April 08, 2008, 04:57:57 PM »
You notice the names of the schools that professors come from? T14 schools disproportionately produce clerks and legal scholars, so the high-level theory classes are directly relevant to what many T14 students want. But the high-level finance courses are DIRECTLY relevant to the practice of law. What you don't seem to get is that T14 and T4 schools are producing students not just for different pay scales, but for completely different legal industries.
Sure, there's only one bar exam for both "industries" -- but that bar exam is mostly irrelevant for biglaw/boutiques and directly relevant for small-time lawyer/late night TV ad personal injury law. We don't study it because we use most of it for one test, and then never again.
You also will likely never see Durden in the courtroom. IF
he chooses to practice litigation (only a part of the law -- we didn't all decide to go to law school after watching a few episodes of "The Practice") and IF
the case reaches a courtroom without settlement or pretrial disposition, he likely won't be in your county district court shuffling traffic tickets. IF
you happen to show up in the same courtroom, just know that T14 students all have clinics, externships, legal writing classes, trial classes, mock trial, and moot court too. So I have no idea why you think you'll be able to run circles around them in a courtroom.
Also, firms usually pay for that "few extra thousand dollars" in bar prep.
« on: April 08, 2008, 04:33:38 PM »
So, the ability of a school to produce students who pass the bar on the first try doesn't mean much to you, but the system of rankings which is based on the LSATs and GPAs of incoming students does? Really? Does that make much sense to you?
Most of the T3/T4 are regional schools that focus on the law of a particular state and teach for the bar exams. Students are corralled into taking courses with material that will be on the bar exam, whether or not they intend to practice in those areas.
T14 students, aside from the 6-8 basic 1L courses, often take courses that have little or no relevance to the bar. They study high-level theory, finance, etc. instead of those general bar courses. (For example, wtf would family law have to do with someone who wants a career in mezzanine finance and venture capital?) They go all over the country. Top schools don't focus on the law in any particular jurisdiction. Therefore, most T14 students go through 3 years of law school and learn everything that will be on the bar in a bar review course.
Also, some state bars are notorious as more difficult than others. A higher-ranked school sending 40% of its grads to a state with a difficult bar may have a lower bar passage rate than a lower-ranked school sending 85% of its grads in-state.
« on: April 08, 2008, 04:23:07 PM »
There are a few types of employment data, and they are all collected by survey. Some schools are more aggressive than others with getting students to fill out the surveys. (Clearly, some schools don't *really* want to know the answers to the surveys.) First, people often inflate numbers on the survey to make themselves more impressive, and second, people with high-paying jobs are the ones most likely to respond. I've also read somewhere that for US News purposes, they just calculate that a certain percentage of the people who do not return surveys are employed.
% Employed at graduation: This number is more important in law school than it is in undergrad. If you're not employed at graduation, you may find it difficult to land a job until after you find out your bar results. This means that you're taking out additional loans to pay for your living expenses and bar review course. Also, your loan deferrals will kick in almost in line with when you find out about your bar results. Many students who are employed at graduation, especially with market-paying firms will have all sorts of benefits to get them through the gap. Additionally, some schools hire a few desperate grads as low-paying research assistants in order to boost the numbers.
% Employed after 9 months: These numbers count ANY employment. Your student loan payments have kicked in by this time. Who doesn't have to have SOME kind of employment after 9 months??? Therefore, this number includes people who are working as paralegals, in non-law related jobs, or even retail out of necessity. It also includes people who are working in doc review sweatshops on a contract basis. It's temping for lawyers, and it sucks. You have a law degree and you are doing low-level work, poorly paid, with no benefits and no real opportunity for advancement, etc. But hey, it counts for your school's "employed at 9 months" numbers!
Midlaw Myth: Many students think: "It's OK if I don't get biglaw. I'll just work in midlaw for $30,000 less. $80-100k still sounds great to me! Let the snooty T14 kids fight it out for $130-160k." But if you look at the salary distributions, "Midlaw" is basically a myth. Most of the salaries across the industry are distributed in the high range or the low-end-barely-paying-off-the-loans range. There are mid-size law firms, but most of them pay at the "biglaw" end of the bell curve and are highly competitive. There are lots of T25 grads who WANT secondary markets, mid-sized firms, quality of life, and faster track to partner, so students at lower-ranked schools shouldn't count on the doors to the mostly mythical midlaw opening to them.
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