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Messages - brown

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11
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
« on: April 13, 2007, 11:22:05 AM »
Life is hell.  Nonexistence is arguably more pleasant than existence even in the best of circumstances. 

clearly, you don't believe that.

Clearly?  False.  I do believe that.  What's your evidence to the contrary?

My evidence is that you haven't killed yourself.  If you really believed it, you'd be gone by now.

False.

1.  See "arguably."
2.  Still doesn't follow.  Why not?  Because (a) it would be painful (and there is no guarantee of success--this is often the case, and tends to be disastrous) and (b) nonexistence can't be isolated (i.e. because I exist my future nonexistence through suicide, even if qualifying as nonexistence, would cause suffering for people I don't care to cause to suffer).

1. Well, if you really want to emphasize "arguably", then you're not saying much since most things are arguable.

2. Then you're back to my point where, at best, you can only decide that for yourself.

Causing people to suffer?  That doesn't even apply.  You're smarter than this.  The fetus doesn't suffer.  The mother chooses to abort her pregnancy because she will suffer less by doing that than by continuing it.  How is the analogy at all meaningful or relevant?

That's not what I was getting at.  I shouldn't have bolded so much.  I should have just bolded the "I."  The point was that your subjective desires affect the pleasantness.

By the way, who are you--thinking you can talk to me with that tone?

Edit:  I can't believe I didn't realize it was you.

12
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
« on: April 13, 2007, 02:15:57 AM »
So if death is the worst possible outcome (which I don't buy) how does this weigh in against the answer to the initial question posed?   

Also, what's safer:  abortion or Aslan?

13
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
« on: April 13, 2007, 02:01:57 AM »
Life is hell.  Nonexistence is arguably more pleasant than existence even in the best of circumstances. 

clearly, you don't believe that.

Clearly?  False.  I do believe that.  What's your evidence to the contrary?

My evidence is that you haven't killed yourself.  If you really believed it, you'd be gone by now.

False.

1.  See "arguably."
2.  Still doesn't follow.  Why not?  Because (a) it would be painful (and there is no guarantee of success--this is often the case, and tends to be disastrous) and (b) nonexistence can't be isolated (i.e. because I exist my future nonexistence through suicide, even if qualifying as nonexistence, would cause suffering for people I don't care to cause to suffer).

1. Well, if you really want to emphasize "arguably", then you're not saying much since most things are arguable.

2. Then you're back to my point where, at best, you can only decide that for yourself.

14
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
« on: April 13, 2007, 01:52:30 AM »
Life is hell.  Nonexistence is arguably more pleasant than existence even in the best of circumstances. 

clearly, you don't believe that.

Clearly?  False.  I do believe that.  What's your evidence to the contrary?



Here's the difference:  For a very long time, many, many fetuses have been viable since day one (in the womb).  This is the case today.  I'm not aware of any current asexual human reproduction.

Cite one instance that a viable baby was born after one day. 

Why?

Because you said many fetuses have been viable since day one.

Yes, in the womb (is what I said).

That's not what viability means.

1. My evidence is that you haven't killed yourself.  If you really believed it, you'd be gone by now.

2. The phrase, "viable outside the womb" is a used quite often.  I don't see why I can't say a fetus is viable inside the womb.

15
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
« on: April 13, 2007, 01:48:35 AM »
To what extent, then, do you believe it is our moral duty to devote resources to pushing independent fetal viability earlier in the pregnancy?  Should we work toward asexual reproduction?  Is anything less murder?

Hmmm...I wish we could have this conversation over coffee.  I'll just say that our moral duty is to take care that we don't unjustly kill people.

What is a just killing?

Or a person, for that matter.

Like I said, coffee.

16
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
« on: April 13, 2007, 01:46:22 AM »
Here's the difference:  For a very long time, many, many fetuses have been viable since day one (in the womb).  This is the case today.  I'm not aware of any current asexual human reproduction.

Cite one instance that a viable baby was born after one day. 

Why?

Because you said many fetuses have been viable since day one.

Yes, in the womb (is what I said).

17
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
« on: April 13, 2007, 01:45:33 AM »
Life is hell.  Nonexistence is arguably more pleasant than existence even in the best of circumstances. 

clearly, you don't believe that.

18
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
« on: April 13, 2007, 01:43:37 AM »
Here's the difference:  For a very long time, many, many fetuses have been viable since day one (in the womb).  This is the case today.  I'm not aware of any current asexual human reproduction.

Cite one instance that a viable baby was born after one day. 

Why?

19
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
« on: April 13, 2007, 01:42:39 AM »
To what extent, then, do you believe it is our moral duty to devote resources to pushing independent fetal viability earlier in the pregnancy?  Should we work toward asexual reproduction?  Is anything less murder?

Hmmm...I wish we could have this conversation over coffee.  I'll just say that our moral duty is to take care that we don't unjustly kill people.

20
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
« on: April 13, 2007, 01:39:35 AM »
Sperm is not a developing human life.   An egg is not a developing human life.

A fetus, like a sperm or an egg, is a potential human life.  What's the point of this framing game?

I disagree.

Didn't want to touch it, but yes, there are worse things than not existing.

I think you can only decide that for your own life.

You said that death is worse than these consequences.  If you can say that, I don't see why I can't say that these consequences are in fact worse than death.

You're close to making a point, however.

Well, from a legal standpoint, anything else is a subset of death.

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