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Messages - iamprov

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Choosing the Right Law School / Re: No news is good news?
« on: April 02, 2007, 09:28:42 AM »
As of April 1st, I've still yet to hear from Rutgers-N, John marshall, Wisconsin, St. John's, and NYLS.  Sent the apps in late January.

If I  got into Wisconsin it would be a dream come true...even being WL'd would be something to me.

So yes, for sanity's sake, I am regarding no news as potentially good news.


I agree with the Depaul comment. I honestly believe they will see themselves as a t3 next year. They have absolutely nothing going for them.

Kent is on the rise (and will continue to be—incredible IP program) and Loyola is extremely well respected in Chicago. This is evident in their statistical increases.

A note on Kent, however… While I believe Loyola garners the most respect in Chicago, I think Kent will soon command a national light. Something to keep in mind when deciding.

I agree. a good friend of mine goes to Kent and LOVES it.

The vast majority of attorneys I talk to state that after your first job or two in the region that you graduated from (assuming you didn't go to a T14), you're more or less geographically transferable...

This makes sense, since the lawyers that I've spoken to all work in the southern New England Area, and yet many went to schools as far away as Depaul, Case Western, Vermont, Albany, St. John's, etc.

Could this mean that as pre-One-L's we're whiping ourselves up into a frenzy that may or may not be justified?

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Who's going to NYLS?
« on: March 28, 2007, 11:32:25 AM »
I've applied to NYLS but the price tag of about 40K plus the cost of living in NYC for three years turns me off.  I simply CANNOT afford to go 180K+ in debt.  Already looking at 150K for Albany.

That's what Depaul GETS for bumping me! ;)

iamasad: I think that the fact that ALS offered you 75K is pretty great...that's a lot more than Pace or Hofstra ponied up.  I think that all three of these schools are pretty much equivalent in rank, more or less, so I would go to (a) the area you like most, and (b) the school that's gonna be the best deal for you financially.

Or maybe I'm just bitter that ALS didn't offer me a dime and I'm freaking out about winding up 150K in the hole.  ;)

p.s.: I went to the ALS open house in March and career center said that they've been able to place about a third of recent grads in NYC.

Kerry went to BC, Ron Wyden went to Oregon, Biden went to Syracse, Byrd went to American (while a Senator; JFK actually gave him his diploma because he spoke at the commencement)

Can't think of any others right now...

Yes I am as horrified.

Oh and don't forget paying it over 30 years sounds great but then you're paying about... 250k or so for a 100k loan.

As I've learned more, I've grown first more apprehensive, then relieved.

It's not like you're locked into paying 2000 a month; hell, my first year or few out, I figure rather than living the big life, I'll treat it like I'm still a student and put as much as I can afford onto the loan. It will be tight (which is ok), but if I do that, it's entirely possible I will have paid off half the loan after year 2. Maybe that's being overly optimistic.

For BIGLAW it is a less scary proposition. I am not going to do BIGLAW, so it scares me more.

You're doing PI, right? I mean, I can understand it would be scary IF you get there and your school's like, oh, sorry, no LRAP for you... but isn't that kind of thing more or less guaranteed? Forgive me, I'm going to whore myself out when I graduate, so I'm unfamiliar with PI, LRAP, and the whole lot.

As I hear, NYU has a VERY generous LRAP program, as does Rutgers Newark.


Well I already have a lib arts BA.  As I said to a previous post, my reasons for wanting to study law are my own.  Getting rich is not the primary reason.  If it is for you why don't you go and get an MBA?

We all have BAs or BSs.  And you're misreading me.  I'm not arguing that it should be or is about 'getting rich' but rather the cost you're going to incur, both tangible and intangible, for the benefit.  I think the "I want to be a lawyer, it's my dream, the debt and everything else won't matter" line of thinking is dangerous; I've known enough debt-saddled grads with minimal employment opportunities to know how real that risk is and what it does to you, emotionally and physically.  Your reasons for studying law may be your own, but your debt will be the same as anyone else's.

It's about making enough to sustain a comfortable middle class lifestyle that doesn't have you scrambling from paycheck to paycheck or force you to keep a job you don't like.  You'll be tied to that job for decades, versus someone who graduates debt-free or well enough from a prestigious enough school to serve three years in biglaw, be debt free, and have the freedom to decide law is for the birds and working in beagle rescue is where it's at.

I'm not here for the money, and I have no interest in business.  I'm here looking for something more personally fulfilling but at the same time I'm extremely conscious of what it will cost me and if there isn't a realistic way for me to go into PI I won't risk incurring the debt.

ETA: I'm not talking about my job specifically, just using a specific in a general sense.  That is, what I have now is a pretty standard post-lib arts entry level-ish job.  It's not like I'm deciding between an amazing job most of us couldn't find and law, I'm deciding between something that's an option for anyone and law.  Earnings potential wise my current career track is equivalent to a T3 or 4 grad with an average success level (especially ultimately paying $300,000 in loans in interest).  It's less than most people with a JD can reasonably expect to make over a lifetime, but it comes without the longterm cost and life choice restrictions that accompany that debt.

Go and do a google search for the top 200 law firms in the country.  Yes, you will find that a good amount of the associates went to top law schools.  But many did not.  Edwards & Angell, which is a huge firm from Boston/Providence, often hires from schools like Suffolk, Roger Williams, Franklin Pierce, etc...  You CAN get a great education, and get a great job without going to a top school.  Sure, you'll have to do well in terms of grades/class rank, but I feel that I can achieve those goals.

As for PI, there are ways to practice in that field and still repay your loans.  I know lawyers who do, and some even went to (shudder!) tier 3 schools.  No one said it would be easy, or you'd drive a brand new car every year, but it can be done.  

Also, my reasons for wanting to study law are not "I want to be a lawyer, it's my dream, the debt and everything else won't matter," to quote your last post.  I took this decision VERY seriously, and am trying to figure out a means by which i can afford to both attend, and do the work I want to.  Are you saying that if your acceptances (and believe me, I'm impressed by them) were from low top-100 and maybe tier 3 schools, and you got no money, you wouldn't bother to go to law school?  If so, what's the breaking point?  Maryland yes, but American no way?

Most people use far more than 15% of their income to pay off their student loans.  If you make 60K (and no offense, but I think I just MAY get above "the median") out of law school, that means you gross $1200 a week.  After taxes you're looking at $780, give or take.  That's $3120 a month.  With a twenty year monthly payment of $1500, that leaves you with $1620, or $405 a week.

Yes, that's incredibly rough at first.  You won't be able to live in NYC for sure, not unless you're married, or with a signifigant other.  But it CAN be done, and it CAN work itself out.  I know many lawyers who do just fine having gone to tier 3 or 4 schools.  But if you wish to believe ALL the hype you're fed, be my guest.

You do realize that it's not hard to get a job that pays $10K more than what you'd be living on that don't require a BA, let alone a JD?   I'm not quite sure how someone could be happy investing that much time and money and effort when they could be working far fewer hours in a low-stress office position for thousands more.

I don't want to start a poo-throwing match but one word: UPSIDE

...what?  I fail to see your point.  I'm in that position now (making more than I would paying off those loans on that salary in a straight 8 - 4:30 - no overtime - gig with benefits.  That doesn't even require a BA.)  If I were facing making *less* after going to school for three years and be forced into a job with much longer, stressful hours, a minimal (if any) increase in fulfillment, and a huge chunk of debt hanging over my head... I definitely would not do it.  And I can't see why someone else would, either.  It's not elitism or 'poo-throwing', it's simple economics and cost-benefit with wages, benefits, and freetime in the equation.

I'd only entertain that minimal increase in wage with the added stress and hours for something very personally fulfilling (public interest).  Otherwise it isn't worth the price without a pay raise much, much larger than my earning potential with a lib arts BA.

Well I already have a lib arts BA.  As I said to a previous post, my reasons for wanting to study law are my own.  Getting rich is not the primary reason.  If it is for you why don't you go and get an MBA?

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