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Messages - iamprov

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101

Well I already have a lib arts BA.  As I said to a previous post, my reasons for wanting to study law are my own.  Getting rich is not the primary reason.  If it is for you why don't you go and get an MBA?

We all have BAs or BSs.  And you're misreading me.  I'm not arguing that it should be or is about 'getting rich' but rather the cost you're going to incur, both tangible and intangible, for the benefit.  I think the "I want to be a lawyer, it's my dream, the debt and everything else won't matter" line of thinking is dangerous; I've known enough debt-saddled grads with minimal employment opportunities to know how real that risk is and what it does to you, emotionally and physically.  Your reasons for studying law may be your own, but your debt will be the same as anyone else's.

It's about making enough to sustain a comfortable middle class lifestyle that doesn't have you scrambling from paycheck to paycheck or force you to keep a job you don't like.  You'll be tied to that job for decades, versus someone who graduates debt-free or well enough from a prestigious enough school to serve three years in biglaw, be debt free, and have the freedom to decide law is for the birds and working in beagle rescue is where it's at.

I'm not here for the money, and I have no interest in business.  I'm here looking for something more personally fulfilling but at the same time I'm extremely conscious of what it will cost me and if there isn't a realistic way for me to go into PI I won't risk incurring the debt.

ETA: I'm not talking about my job specifically, just using a specific in a general sense.  That is, what I have now is a pretty standard post-lib arts entry level-ish job.  It's not like I'm deciding between an amazing job most of us couldn't find and law, I'm deciding between something that's an option for anyone and law.  Earnings potential wise my current career track is equivalent to a T3 or 4 grad with an average success level (especially ultimately paying $300,000 in loans in interest).  It's less than most people with a JD can reasonably expect to make over a lifetime, but it comes without the longterm cost and life choice restrictions that accompany that debt.

Go and do a google search for the top 200 law firms in the country.  Yes, you will find that a good amount of the associates went to top law schools.  But many did not.  Edwards & Angell, which is a huge firm from Boston/Providence, often hires from schools like Suffolk, Roger Williams, Franklin Pierce, etc...  You CAN get a great education, and get a great job without going to a top school.  Sure, you'll have to do well in terms of grades/class rank, but I feel that I can achieve those goals.

As for PI, there are ways to practice in that field and still repay your loans.  I know lawyers who do, and some even went to (shudder!) tier 3 schools.  No one said it would be easy, or you'd drive a brand new car every year, but it can be done.  

Also, my reasons for wanting to study law are not "I want to be a lawyer, it's my dream, the debt and everything else won't matter," to quote your last post.  I took this decision VERY seriously, and am trying to figure out a means by which i can afford to both attend, and do the work I want to.  Are you saying that if your acceptances (and believe me, I'm impressed by them) were from low top-100 and maybe tier 3 schools, and you got no money, you wouldn't bother to go to law school?  If so, what's the breaking point?  Maryland yes, but American no way?


102
Most people use far more than 15% of their income to pay off their student loans.  If you make 60K (and no offense, but I think I just MAY get above "the median") out of law school, that means you gross $1200 a week.  After taxes you're looking at $780, give or take.  That's $3120 a month.  With a twenty year monthly payment of $1500, that leaves you with $1620, or $405 a week.

Yes, that's incredibly rough at first.  You won't be able to live in NYC for sure, not unless you're married, or with a signifigant other.  But it CAN be done, and it CAN work itself out.  I know many lawyers who do just fine having gone to tier 3 or 4 schools.  But if you wish to believe ALL the hype you're fed, be my guest.

You do realize that it's not hard to get a job that pays $10K more than what you'd be living on that don't require a BA, let alone a JD?   I'm not quite sure how someone could be happy investing that much time and money and effort when they could be working far fewer hours in a low-stress office position for thousands more.

I don't want to start a poo-throwing match but one word: UPSIDE

...what?  I fail to see your point.  I'm in that position now (making more than I would paying off those loans on that salary in a straight 8 - 4:30 - no overtime - gig with benefits.  That doesn't even require a BA.)  If I were facing making *less* after going to school for three years and be forced into a job with much longer, stressful hours, a minimal (if any) increase in fulfillment, and a huge chunk of debt hanging over my head... I definitely would not do it.  And I can't see why someone else would, either.  It's not elitism or 'poo-throwing', it's simple economics and cost-benefit with wages, benefits, and freetime in the equation.

I'd only entertain that minimal increase in wage with the added stress and hours for something very personally fulfilling (public interest).  Otherwise it isn't worth the price without a pay raise much, much larger than my earning potential with a lib arts BA.

Well I already have a lib arts BA.  As I said to a previous post, my reasons for wanting to study law are my own.  Getting rich is not the primary reason.  If it is for you why don't you go and get an MBA?

103
Estimate at Albany:

Tuitionx 3:  114,000
COL x 3: 45K

A cool 160K...for a ten-year loan, that's about 2200 bucks a month in payments.

Anyone else completely horrified about their debt prospects?

you're right to be afraid of such massive debt coming out of a tier 3 law school. Not to sound like an arrogant jackass but to give you my honest opinion- you should really consider your employment prospects in conjuction with the massive debt you'll be getting into. Looking at albany the median salary is only 48K! Use this site to calculate your loan payments: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml. Your monthly payment will be 1,800 dollars and to quote this site  "It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $220,954.80 to be able to afford to repay this loan...If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $147,303.20 , but you may experience some financial difficulty". Anyhow, let's say that these numbers are too high- you'd still need about 100K to comfortably pay off those loans. For instance if you pay your loans over 30 years you're still looking at a  monthly payment of 1,000 and you'd need about 80 K a year to sustain yourself comfortably. Will your law degree from albany give you such an opportunity? Perhaps. I'm sure there have been a selected few who excelled at their jobs and managed to get into biglaw. But it is an uphill battle and the odds are greatly against you.
Furthermore i'd like to add that I'm against the whole "i want to be a lawyer and i dont care what school i go to... it's my dream". Personally i view such "dreams" as immature. Law is not fun and is definately not glamorous. Remember that law school is a means to an end and not an end in itself.

Most people use far more than 15% of their income to pay off their student loans.  If you make 60K (and no offense, but I think I just MAY get above "the median") out of law school, that means you gross $1200 a week.  After taxes you're looking at $780, give or take.  That's $3120 a month.  With a twenty year monthly payment of $1500, that leaves you with $1620, or $405 a week.

Yes, that's incredibly rough at first.  You won't be able to live in NYC for sure, not unless you're married, or with a signifigant other.  But it CAN be done, and it CAN work itself out.  I know many lawyers who do just fine having gone to tier 3 or 4 schools.  But if you wish to believe ALL the hype you're fed, be my guest.

Per your other comments: yes, I know that law is not always fun or glamorous.  And no, i  don't have this generic "dream" of wanting to be a lawyer.  My reasons for entering the field are my own, as are yours.  As for school rank, where's your cutoff?  Is Villanova an acceptable 150K risk, but St. John's isn't, simply because they're separated by a few points on the good ol' US News rankings?

104

do your choices not have decent lraps?
[/quote]

Only the t10 has decent lraps I thought...
[/quote]


Albany's is fairly decent; up to 10K a year for first three years.  actually, I'm not too sure how decent it is, since I haven't really compared it to other schools.  I've hears Rutgers Newark's is impressive.

105
Are interest rates really that bad? 2200 a month for 10 years is 264,000... That seems exorbitantly high to pay 104k interest on 160k loans.

Those are the numbers that the financial aid director at ALS gave me.  Over twenty, it works out to roughly 1500 a month.  Total: 360 K.

Amazing.

106
Think of it as playing the lotto... and if you win, you get to work 80 hours a week for the rest of your life! Yay, law!  :'(

And to think that I wanted to go into public interest and help improve people's lives...silly me. :-[

107
Where should I go next fall? / anybody else as scared of debt as me?
« on: March 20, 2007, 05:23:37 PM »
Estimate at Albany:

Tuitionx 3:  114,000
COL x 3: 45K

A cool 160K...for a ten-year loan, that's about 2200 bucks a month in payments.

Anyone else completely horrified about their debt prospects?

108
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Suffolk vs. NESL vs. Quinnipiac
« on: March 13, 2007, 03:50:49 PM »
Regarding NESL, I think that Suffolk is a better school (probably the most underrated law school in New england, actually) and if the OP gets into Suffolk, then that's that.  Having said that, I have several friends that went to NESL and have successful careers in law, two of which are in General Practice.  I think you'll probably never be on the Supreme Court, but you do learn to be a good lawyer.  All what you put into it.

109
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Suffolk vs. NESL vs. Quinnipiac
« on: March 13, 2007, 03:00:55 PM »
I have gotten into NESL and Quinnipiac.  I am going to pick Suffolk if I get in.  They certainly take their time reviewing apps.  If I don't get into Suffolk, I will be torn between Quinnipiac and NESL.  Quinnipiac is ranked higher however I want to work in Boston.  I have worked for Goodwin Procter and Mintz Levin as an IP paralegal over the past 3.5 years and have good connections in Boston.  Thoughts anyone?

Even Quinnipiac will place better in Boston than NESL. It's a no-contest.

With all due respect, I don't see how you can say that...NESL's inBoston...of course it will place better than Quinnipiac...just because it's the bottom feeder doesn't mean that hundreds, if not thousands of attorneys still work in the region.

 

110
I'll right everyone, it'll be out soon enough but I thought I'd give a little taste of what's to come. Very little movement between the T-14s. Two schools though made big jumps this year. The first one, Kansas, wasn't that much of a surprise. Call it a market correction as KU went from 70 to 58. The other, however, made the jump from mid 40's to 27 (huge median LSAT jump and one key facutly hire).  Funny thing is I did a search and almost nobody's even talking about it. People are gonna be really happy or really pissed off if.

Our official release is April 2nd but you'll be seeing it out there March 29th, maybe the 27th depending on which part of the country you live in.

   

A Kansas Troll? Honestly? Just kill yourself. HTH.

NB: Before killing self, learn how to spell faculty.

Look, I'm sure you get this, like, ALL THE TIME, so not to be redundant or anything, but you seem like a real a-hole.

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