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Messages - platopotato

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Browsing , I noticed that in 2001 and 02, over 90% of William Mitchell's grads were employed at graduation. In 2004-5 they dropped to 50%! They are a Tier 3 this year, but they were a tier 4 before that. What's going on over there?

I didn't even bother applying at WM this year, but I certainly would have if their stats were closer to what they were several years ago.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall
« on: May 22, 2007, 09:47:15 PM »
i think if you look at Toledo's lsat numbers, in spite of their recent rise in rank, they are still UNDER-RATED.  I almost applied there just for kicks, they have that whole institute on the water crisis between US and Canada -- not a deciding factor but cool stuff...

Also, I'd make sure you tell ppl you interview with (assuming this is a valid statement and they ask about your school choice) that if you look at the scores, Toledo is as strong as Case Western.  If they laugh, its probably b/c they're a dinosaur.

note: I'm from another city / don't know the region too well.

I have not heard very many people claim that Toledo is under-rated. These statistics are from the USNews online 2008 edition:

Attrition Rates for 2005-2006 Full- and Part-time Students
Percent of students discontinuing law school:
- First-year students: 14.4%
- Second-year students: 2.1%
- Third-year students: 1.6%

African-American: 2.7%
American Indian: 0.4%
Asian-American: 1.9%
Mexican-American: 0.0%
Puerto Rican: 0.0%
Other Hispanic-American: 2.5%
White: 63.9%
International: 0.0%
Unknown: 28.6%

Starting Salaries (2005 Graduates Employed Full-time)
Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $50,000 - $80,000
Median in the private sector: $60,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 55%
Median in public service: $40,000

   Law firms: 49%
   Business/industry (legal): 8%
   Business/industry (nonlegal): 8%
   Government: 20%
   Public interest: 3%
   Judicial clerkship: 2%
   Academia: 3%
   Unknown: 7%

Fall 2006 enrollment:
Full time: 74 students: LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 155-160
Part time: 116 students: LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 151-155

Peer assessment score (5.0 highest): 2
Assessment score by lawyers/judges (5.0 highest): 2.4

I think they are the only school with more part time students admitted than full time. They probably do this because they know USNews only calculates the average of full time students in their ranking. Notice that only 55% reported their salary and 7% are working in unknown/star bucks.

14% attrition for first year students? I'm sure this is partly due to the fact that Toledo's scholarships require you to be in the top 25% of your class. Also, they have a reputation for making it very difficult for out of state students to become classified as in-state. I think all of the other schools in Ohio are much more lenient in letting their students become classified as in-state.

Toledo does have an impressive 85% employed at graduation. However, given these stats, I wonder if that isn't fluffed up. Perhaps they get their students temp jobs just so they can report they are employed at graduation?

I don't think Toledo is a bad school, I was seriously considering going there myself. In the end I decided it wasn't worth the money they offered me because if I lost my scholarship I would instantly take 50k+ of debt.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Cincinnati or Marquette?
« on: May 16, 2007, 04:02:20 PM »
diplom privilege and debt here tilt the hand in favor of Marquette.  housing prices in Milwaukee are insane-o as well (in a good way, i have a good friend who bought a 3500 square foot home in a great neighborhood for just under 300K) so your dollar goes farther.  additionally Milwaukee is undergoing a bit of a renaissance as well with the state dumping millions of dollars into the city in an attempt to spur growth.  if you have kids look at the university school, one of the best private schools in the country.  sadly i don't know much about Cinci, but if debt is a consideration, all of the factors i mentioned above count...and the quality of life is great...and you live  less than 1 hour from Chicago. i say go to Marquette hands down. good luck

Debt is my primary concern, but I am not sure that points towards Marquette. The difference of cost is only 20k and Cincinnati's graduates seem to start with significantly higher salaries. If I started around 60k having graduated from Marquette, what do you think I could be expecting to make three, five, and ten years down the road?

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Cincinnati or Marquette?
« on: May 16, 2007, 09:22:34 AM »
How did you get that kind of money out of stingy ass Marquette.  I didn't get a cent and I have family members who went there and the same LSAT score as you.  48% reporting their salaries to Cincinnati sounds really shady to me.

I didn't think they were that stingy. According to the latest ABA guide 36.7% full time students (569) are receiving grants (3.2% half to full and 3.2% full), and 63.7 % of the part times students (146) receive grants (11.6% half to full and 8.2% full). I assume the competition among students is friendly for the most part because all of Marquette's scholarships only require that you remain in good academic standing (2.0 gpa).

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Cincinnati or Marquette?
« on: May 16, 2007, 09:17:23 AM »

Well, if you put stock in USN&WR rankings there is a significant difference-Cincinnati is ranked 57 and Marquette 97 (and was Tier Three last year.)  Cincinnati seems to move within a band (as low as 60, but occasionally into Tier One.)  I'm not sure what Marquette's historical rankings are.

...My advice to the OP stands: go visit. Talk to the students. Decide if you can be happy living/practicing in Milwaukee or Cincy for the next 3 years, and then think about the 10 years after that. They are both regional degrees, yes, but that doesn't make them bad degrees, per se.

And fry the rankings- do what's best FOR YOU, and stop worrying about everyone else. Trust me, you'll be much happier.


Para  ;)

P.S. Federal circuit court meets in Milwaukee, and the Court of Appeals is in Chicago (I believe?) which is a couple hours away- but very doable by train. Also- the state supreme court is in Madison, which is about 90 minutes away from Milwaukee.

Good advice. I am already leaning towards Marquette. I am a bit concerned about starting salaries though. The total cost difference between these schools is only 20k, and I could be making significantly more if I graduate from Cincinnati. In the past I believe Marquette's avg starting salary has been lower than 60k, near 45k...

Choosing the Right Law School / Cincinnati or Marquette?
« on: May 15, 2007, 10:44:38 PM »
Unless a miracle happens and Minnesota accepts me, it's between these two. I'd like to hear your suggestions and comments.

Scholarship: 70k (2.0 gpa requirement)
Total cost for three years: 21k (NOT taking into account tuition hikes)
Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $45,000 - $70,500
Median in the private sector: $58,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 78%
Number of employers currently listed for OCI at NALP: 29

Scholarship: 28k (2.0 gpa requirement. 12k first year and 8k for 2nd/3rd)
Total cost for three years: 40k (NOT taking into account tuition hikes)
Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $65,000 - $95,000
Median in the private sector: $90,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 48%
Number of employers currently listed for OCI at NALP: 57

In common:
The first year attrition rate for both schools is about 8%
Percent employed at graduation (65%) and 9 months later (95%)

Additional thoughts:
-Wouldn't have to take the bar exam if I graduated from Marquette!
-No preference for one city over the other.
-I am going to assume that living expenses in both towns are about equal.
-Debt is a HUGE concern for me, I have to rely entirely on loans. Although Cincinnati reports a much higher average starting salaries, only 48% reported so I am going to assume its not nearly that high. Probably closer to 70k.
-Both schools have programs that interest me.
-Cincinnati places about 15% of its graduates in clerkship positions, while Marquette only 7%
-Marquette seems to have a bright future. They just received a 51 million dollar donation and are going to construct a new law building. Supposedly, Milwaukee is investing a lot of money to clean itself up.

What do you guys think? What else should I be considering?

It seems like there are a lot of people here hoping to get off the Wisconsin waitlist.

yes, including me

I think this is a no-brainer, but I'd like to hear your opinions, in case you disagree. Minnesota with no scholarship (in-state tuition) or Marquette with a 70k scholarship (only requires a 2.0 gpa).

Estimates for tuition over three years:

Minnesota: a little over 60k
Marquette: probably 25k

Cost of living: I suspect it's about the same, maybe a little cheaper in Milwaukee. 45k over three years?

Avg salaries for 2006 grads (usnews):
Minnesota: 60-105k median: 83k
Marquette: 45-70k median: 60k

Of course Minnesota is a much better school and would offer me better career opportunities. Assuming I am capable of working during my 2nd and 3rd years, would I be more likely to get a better paying job while at Minnesota? Can I also expect that a summer job would pay more if I was attending Minnesota? This could help reduce the extra costs of tuition.

What do you guys think? Is this a no-brainer for Minnesota? If not, why?

I put more faith into the ILRG numbers than I do with self-reported numbers, which also includes USNWR. If there's one place schools would lie about their salary numbers, it's on USNWR data. If you dig through ILRG, you can find an explanation of how they reach all the stats that they use, and when I did look it up, it seemed pretty reasonable to me.

Now, I'm not very tempted at doing doc review myself, nor do I encourage anyone else to, but pretending like these jobs shouldn't be calculated in the average salary for a school is just stupid. If you get a doc review job you make 100k a year on, that's 100k just like any other 100k would be. Sure, it doesn't put you on any partnership track or any significant chance for a career progress, but salary is salary.

I cannot find how they calculated the average starting salary. All i see is this little note:

"* The average for "Admissions Statistics," "Bar Exam Statistics," and "Employment Statistics" were calculated using the four year average for 2001, 2002, 2004, and 2005, as released by the law schools."

As released by the law schools? thats not too helpful..

Incoming 1Ls / Re: How important is starting salary?
« on: April 23, 2007, 08:01:19 PM »
I'm responding to the title of your thread, not the content of your post.

Starting Salary is not important because Law School is inexpensive and everyone graduates with the education paid for in full.

thank you

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