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Messages - Lawbster

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1
General Board / Re: Journal
« on: April 12, 2008, 04:08:57 PM »
Journals are good for academia I suppose, but moreso during 1L/2L.

If you're considering a journal as a 3L and wondering about OCI you have poor grades and don't go to a top school, so academia is out anyways.

Skip it, start checking craigslist for legal work.

2
Thomas M. Cooley / Re: Thomas Cooley Students
« on: April 10, 2008, 10:45:28 PM »
well when i researched, i did see the negatives that people said.  but knowing that most of the negatives that people say about things usually stem from their ignorance of that thing, i came to the conclusion that there was nothing about the quality of the education.  it was just the superficial attitudes about the prospects afterwards.  i guess there is a significant part about myself that i am leaving out, because i do not plan on working for big law like some of you hope to.  I deal in the financial world.  I am and will always be a banker.  I will be overseas after i finish, and although I may transfer and i may not, I will make Way more than the lousy $40k that most of you all seem to think i will be stuck with.    Thats not my road.   the criterion i had was education.  is cooley hard, sounds like it.  do they dump alot of students?  yup.  is the grading structure insane?  i heard it is.  is the bar passage low...its pretty average across the country...higher than some, lower than some.

look i took and passed my  CPA-2000   first shot!  all sections
                                                  series 7- 2005  first shot

the bar is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY easier.   

so even though i might transfer, and as difficult as it may be, i still hold on the the decision ive made to go there now, not waste time, and get my degree.     the research to this extent is what i was refering to when i said that i heard the negs after i decided to go.   I Grilled the Admissions people for a long time, and im sure i got on some list because i asked alot of questions.   so what.

either way, telling me how much of a dum ass makes the person calling me the dumass look more like the dumass.    im there, let me deal with the consequences.  ME.     if all else fails, i will go back to banking...and still make more than the T1 grads.   I make more than them now!  or 2 months ago.    so telling me im not going to make any money which is your argument doesnt apply to me.    sorry. 

Two things: Why do you say you don't care about the money and then proceed to tell people how you're great because you will make a lot of money?

Second, the series 7 can be easily passed with a weekend of training. I did that even. But what is the cpa-2000 exam? Did you make that up?

3
General Board / Re: Judicial Clerkships
« on: April 10, 2008, 07:09:04 PM »
Hey everyone. Just wanted to gather some advice. I am dying to get out of Southern Illinois. I have wrote about this before as some might remember. Couple of things:.
1) since I go to a school that is not a Top tier school is it possible to get a judicial clerkship? I have yet to hear of anyone getting one.
2) I would LOVE to clerk at either the USVI, Northern Mariana, Palau(I know they require 1 year post JD at Palau), or somewhere like these areas.
3) i want to be a prosecutor when I get out so I am not worried if the right judical clerkship position would lead to a biglaw gig. Not interested.
4) I clerked for judges for about 6 months, I am doing an externship this summer with the SAO, I will also be working with a professor at my school who is working on a textbook doing research and writing for the textbook. Will this help me.
5) My ranking in my class is top 1/3 so I am not to high up there. I was 13th in my class but had to miss an entire month of school to be with my wife while she was in ICU. I still passed all my class above the median, but I still took a hit. Not trying to sounce egotistical, just want to tell what happened and see if anyone thinks that judges will look at this as a positive in a negative situation.

Anyway, I know I have alot of things going against me, but I will take any and all advice.

Info on Southern Illinois? Is that a law school? Accredited? If so, tier?

Without knowing what school that is, and assuming it's a law school, I have to assume it's either a tier 3, 4 or unaccredited. If so, you'll have a hard time clerking ANYWHERE but the same city this school is in. From what I know about obscure law schools, generally you need to be at the top of the class, as in top few people. Conversely, if you can find a judge that went to that school (there are lots of TTT judges in the areas that they went to school), you may have a shot.

I know the clerkships you mentioned are pretty competitive because everyone wants to do a year of clerk/sit on a beach on an island.

4
Thomas M. Cooley / Re: Thomas Cooley Students
« on: April 10, 2008, 06:17:09 PM »
umm.. first, if i was hiring, and there were ten spots and ten cooley attorneys in the top 25% of the class, I wouldnt hire any of those cooley grads.  I would either hire the Harvard kids or find one of hundreds of other tier 1 kids in the top 25% of their class that are still looking for jobs.

The fact is, cooley is a terrible school for extremely subpar students.  Regardless of what bad *&^% happened during your life, there are plenty of people at t14 and t20 law schools that have had just as tough a time and were able to get over it and get through it.  Not everyone at good schools is an elitist from a really well-off and connected family.  I went to a private school for undergrad, because I pulled a 4.0 in high school and spent 60 dollars on a prep course for the SATs and as a result got nearly a full scholarship to the university.  I got exceptional grades in undergrad while working part time to make ends meet and managing two clubs.  Its not hard to do well once you stop making excuses for your short comings.

You go to cooley though and you enjoy yourself.  If you end up in the top 5% there you can compete for jobs with people in the bottom 5% of my school and, realistically, they will probably still get the job over you.  That is because they proved themselves in high school to get to college and they proved themselves there.  Why would any respectable employer give you a shot when you let your poor sob story of a life come in the way of your personal success?

You're arguing with flame, dude. No one is as dense as this guy. Give it up.

5
Thomas M. Cooley / Re: Thomas Cooley Students
« on: April 10, 2008, 11:46:59 AM »
you are not getting my point.   im not talking about the resume.  if thats the case, then lets leave HLS out..and insert whatever T2 school.    same issue applies.  basically you are saying that not only the quality of the education is better (and im not saying that its not necessarily) but say all of the fundamentals are taught at each school.  The grading is subjective of course, but the information is fundamentally the same.  the only difference is the perceived quality of the students based upon their undergrad grades and lsat score...(lsat score to me is the only applicable evaluation tool)  and their family name...sometimes. 

I went to school in japan growing up. (i am american)  our education was 100000000% better than any in american public school and most private.  If a kid grows up in a private school, gets good grades like most kids should, their parents pay out the ass for it, then get a good recommendation to a top notch school.  go thru and since they dont have any life issues to have to worry about because their parents set them up (cant complain about that, wish i had that).  they did good at school like they should have, then with good named school that they probably didnt have to pay for themselves, and average grades...3.5+  they are able to get into HLS because their pops or moms is a professional and is able to surround that kid with people that can help him score really well...like the tutors in the Firm that helped TC pass the bar.   

now you tell me how that student is Better than a kid that went to a state school...busted his ass, but has a kid and had to work 40+ hours a week.  made good grades in college, but it took him a little longer because of family obligations.  took lsat, and scored eeehh..a 160 or 164    for whatever reason that dude has to go to cooley.   they are giving him money and he still has to work, but the amount of money he is getting enables him to work only parttime and still be able to take care of his fam.     

the second dude is garbage?    the first guy is inherently better?    the first dude who doesnt have mommy and daddy around doesnt do as good, but still finishes with a 2.3 and the other dude finishes with a 3.7.     

ok the people doing the hiring also came from the same background as the first guy, so they hire him.   the second guy finishes in the top 3% of his class.  but he doesnt come from ease like the first guy.   he also applies to the place.  he isnt hired because he is a worker bee.

does that make the second guy inherently worse than the first guy?  are you telling me that a 3.7 is not better than a 2.3?  are you telling me that the first guy getting the 2.3 could make a 4.0 at cooley?  are you telling me that the 3.7 guy couldnt do that at harvard?   

i know the school name is key.  and i never said that i wont transfer either..im a professional, so i understand the complexities of where you did your education...im well aware.  but what i have a problem with is those people that are posting on webforums all over the web that never went to cooley, are in T1 schools, and douchebagishly talk about how what they are or where they go is better than even attending in the first place.   anyone that says that is a moron in my opinion!  point blank.  flame me all you like. but the fact remains, if you have never lived a life, then you will never understand that sometimes life throws you a curve.   if you are 20 or 24 or whatever and have never done or accomplished anything but making a turd that is so long that you take a picture of it or you have to call your friends so they can see it....then i feel sorry for you.   you do people a disservice by telling people that their school will suck so much that you might as well not even go.   maybe someone should have told your parents that they shouldnt have had sex because their kid was going to grow up and be a feminine hygiene product!     neither listened...so deal with the decision or mistake that people made. 

I will be at cooley in a few weeks.  i will from day one be politic-ing all over the world because i know how.  If the consensus is that i need to leave, then i will.  if i feel like the quality of my education is garbage compared to my peers at other schools, then i will leave.   if you are looking at the school that gets you a job the easiest, then you deserve that easy ass job.  I on the other hand will be doing  ACTUAL work.  I speak 4 languages.   does that make your harvard law degree better than ME?  nope.  does it not...nope either.

just check yourself is all im saying.    because unless you are actually doing the hiring, you arent saying sh*t!

wtf dude? Who's talking about people being BETTER than other people?

One school is better than the other because it has more opportunities upon graduation. A HYS grad can walk out at the bottom of the class and still get biglaw while a Cooley student has trouble doing that same thing from the top 10%.

Thus, a better degree is a BETTER INVESTMENT.

Combine that with the fact that it's tougher to get into better schools (better numbers required, which require more work and intelligence), and it can be reasonably asserted that smarter people go to better schools.

People can do what they want and make their own choices. If someone can't do any better than Cooley, it doesn't make them "garbage" as you like to say, it makes them poor decision makers. The same way someone who spends $150k on a lottery ticket with a 10% chance of winning is a poor decision maker.

Also, I promise you billing 2400 hours in biglaw is not easy. It sucks. The only difference is that we get compensated highly for the work. On top of that, we get the recognition of working on M&As and such that matter and are highly publicized.

I don't understand why you think you're better than people because you didn't do as well in life and "can speak 4 languages." I speak 3, worked my butt off in UG, got a great Fulbright scholarship in a competitive country, etc. Yet I don't think I'm better than anyone, I just applied myself.

6
General Board / Re: TTT
« on: April 10, 2008, 11:15:29 AM »
I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for me.  I don't even feel sorry for me.  I'm simply pointing out that the biggest difference between T1 and T4 students is the LSAT score and that the LSAT is a bad indicator of one's ability to be a good lawyer.




The LSAT may be a bad indicator of law school performance, but I would wager that the majority of those people that do poorly aren't that smart. Anecdotally from teaching LSAT classes with a prep company, I can say that there was a big difference when I taught for Kap than when I taught for PS.

The Kap students usually started out below the median, some classes I taught had an average score below 135. There was a distinct difference just talking to these students (who did improve btw, usually about 8-10 points) and talking to students in my PS classes. Generally the PS students started closer to 155-160 and seemed much sharper, more intelligent, and well-rounded.

The LSAT doesn't measure future law school success, but seems to be a pretty good indicator of intelligence.

However, the law has little to do with intelligence. If any one of us were truly smart, we'd probably be doing physics or cosmology. Law is easy and I see how a TTT grad can do well by handling speeding ticket/dui cases in a solo practice. Those take very little brainpower and it's pretty much the same thing every time.

7
Thomas M. Cooley / Re: Thomas Cooley Students
« on: April 10, 2008, 11:04:04 AM »
The real question is this:

Better investment, Cooley JD or 150,000 Powerball tickets?

8
General Board / Re: Academic Dismissal
« on: April 09, 2008, 11:26:50 PM »
I'm missing what good retaking the LSAT would do you? Are you going to try to get into a different/better law school than the one you were dismissed from? A better LSAT score won't offset the fact that you crapped out (sorry to be blunt)... is there a particular reason why you did so poorly? You need something that's going to show that you are not going to achieve the same degree of success that you did the first time around, and I don't think a higher LSAT score is going to do that...
Sorry,
Rob

I disagree.

The curves at TTTs can be pretty brutal. At my school, the median is almost a B+. I think like a 2.75 puts you in the top 99% of the class and it's impossible to fail out, well almost impossible.

If he retakes LSAT and reapplies, and gets into a good school, I doubt he will have to worry. Schools primarily care about LSAT and gpa. Naturally, he will need an addendum, but I don't think it's a deal-breaker.

However, I'd make sure to attend a Tier 1 at the lowest.

9
Thomas M. Cooley / Re: Thomas Cooley Students
« on: April 09, 2008, 10:49:35 PM »
Tell you what, people will hate, people will be grateful....the basic point is where are you?  I was accepted to a few schools.  I found out about Cooley's negatives AFTER I applied.  By and large, my undergrad was not the best, but mine was for reasons not related to screwing up in class.  Death of my Fiance pretty much screwed up my head, especially when it happened the sunday before school started.

I am/was a Banker and for the last 8 or 11 years, I have made well over $100k.  so money doesnt really motivate me like it might the t1 grad that everyone is talking about.  Its the task at hand.  Since I accepted Cooley and decided to go, I have been looking more and more at the negatives.  If it gets insane, meaning, the schools is not deserving of me and my money, then I will Transfer!  Those of you that do go to the t1 school that wants to hate, feel free.  But understand that most people that I have met that have gone to Ivy league schools couldnt look up without swallowing their tongues or drowning on their spit! 

I dont plan on working in the US anyways, and I have money, so my skills are what im worried about.  If someone could say something constructive about the actual education offered being terrible, then ill listen, but all I hear is people that either never went there, never made it, or loved it.     and of the first two, all i hear is you wont get a job, or your money will be low.   nothing about "Im a KILLER in the RING!!"    so since all i hear is whining, i think it will be ok.

if the average GPA is 2.3 and the class sizes are high in L1...then i would assume that the best place would be among those that are keeping the avg high..n'est pas?

so for those of you giving positives...thanks...ill be there in lansing this may08.

you never know until you try, and if you dont try, you'll fail, and if you fail, you no different than where you are now anyways...right?     SO DONT FAIL!


simple as that!

majik!

ESL?

I just assumed that, especially with the wanting to work in a foreign country.

Now we get to hear the "he doesn't feel the need to proofread on a message board" speech.

10
Thomas M. Cooley / Re: Thomas Cooley Students
« on: April 09, 2008, 10:43:34 PM »
Tell you what, people will hate, people will be grateful....the basic point is where are you?  I was accepted to a few schools.  I found out about Cooley's negatives AFTER I applied.  By and large, my undergrad was not the best, but mine was for reasons not related to screwing up in class.  Death of my Fiance pretty much screwed up my head, especially when it happened the sunday before school started.

I am/was a Banker and for the last 8 or 11 years, I have made well over $100k.  so money doesnt really motivate me like it might the t1 grad that everyone is talking about.  Its the task at hand.  Since I accepted Cooley and decided to go, I have been looking more and more at the negatives.  If it gets insane, meaning, the schools is not deserving of me and my money, then I will Transfer!  Those of you that do go to the t1 school that wants to hate, feel free.  But understand that most people that I have met that have gone to Ivy league schools couldnt look up without swallowing their tongues or drowning on their spit! 

I dont plan on working in the US anyways, and I have money, so my skills are what im worried about.  If someone could say something constructive about the actual education offered being terrible, then ill listen, but all I hear is people that either never went there, never made it, or loved it.     and of the first two, all i hear is you wont get a job, or your money will be low.   nothing about "Im a KILLER in the RING!!"    so since all i hear is whining, i think it will be ok.

if the average GPA is 2.3 and the class sizes are high in L1...then i would assume that the best place would be among those that are keeping the avg high..n'est pas?

so for those of you giving positives...thanks...ill be there in lansing this may08.

you never know until you try, and if you dont try, you'll fail, and if you fail, you no different than where you are now anyways...right?     SO DONT FAIL!


simple as that!

majik!

So you're saying you've made about $10k/year for the last 10 or so years? Ouch.

Also, hate to nitpick, but if you go to Cooley and fail, you are MUCH worse off than before you tried. You're either a victim of their horrid attrition rates, or you actually have a degree and can't pass the bar, or you pass the bar and can't get employed. In essence, the failures at Cooley seem to make out better than the "successes" because they have the least debt.

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