Law School Discussion

The reality is very few incoming 0L's have any idea what they really want to do since you know very little about the law prior to enrolling and even after law school your interests can change greatly.

Legend's right again here... what you *think* you want to focus on when applying to law school can easily fall to the wayside once you've been exposed to other fields of law and the opportunities your school provides. Considering the dismal state of organized labor (7% union density in private sector), I would caution against choosing a school on the basis of their labor studies opportunities. Instead, let that be a 'soft factor' in your decision after you've narrowed your choices with the 'hard factors' of job placement and expense. Labor law is a small, specialized field with limited job opportunities, and it's not one of the more lucrative fields (at least not on the union/worker side).

Quote from: RobWreck on August 20, 2012, 01:20:29 PM

You won't get any argument out of me about the vast differences between law school, sitting for the bar and the actual practice of law. I guess I just fall more into the law school = legal education camp, rather than the law school = career training belief.

That's fine, but it sucks that a practitioners' group like the ABA and state bars would require three years of legal education unless those years were necessary.   I'm fine with 1L, and 2L really depends on what type of law you want to do, but 3L is a joke for pretty much everyone.  I did law review, moot court, and worked part time and I had a ton of time to mess around.

Don't most states have an alternative route for eligibility to sit for the bar exam? NY does - a combination of law school and real law office experience. My thought is that if you're going to be in law school, paying for law school, then "do" law school. If you're not there for the education, then why pay for those later years?

http://www.nybarexam.org/Rules/Rules.htm#520.4
520.4 Study of Law in Law Office (effective April 1, 2012)

(a) General. An applicant may qualify to take the New York State bar examination by submitting to the New York State Board of Law Examiners satisfactory proof that:

(1) the applicant commenced the study of law after the applicant's 18th birthday;

(2) the applicant successfully completed the prescribed requirements of the first year of full-time study in a first degree in law program at an approved law school as defined in section 520.3(b) of this Part, whether attending full-time or part-time, earning a minimum of 28 credit hours (the threshold period);

(3) at the conclusion of the threshold period the applicant was in good standing, not on academic probation, and was eligible to continue in the law school's degree program;

(4) the threshold period was completed within 36 months of the commencement of law school study; and

(5) the applicant thereafter studied law in a law office or offices located within New York State, under the supervision of one or more attorneys admitted to practice law in New York State, for such a period of time as, together with the credit permitted pursuant to this section for attendance in an approved law school, shall aggregate four years.

(b) Employment and instruction requirements. An applicant studying law in a law office or offices within New York State must be actually and continuously employed during the required period as a regular law clerk and student in a law office, under the direction and subject to the supervision of one or more attorneys admitted to practice law in New York State, and must be actually engaged in the practical work of such law office during normal business hours. In addition, the applicant must receive instruction from the supervising attorney or attorneys in those subjects that are customarily taught in approved law schools.

(c) Credit for attendance in approved law school. Credit shall be allowed toward the required four years of combined law school and law office study in accordance with subdivision (a) as follows:

(1) one full year (52 weeks) of credit shall be allowed for successfully completing the threshold period;

(2) following the threshold period, two weeks of credit shall be allowed for every additional successfully completed credit hour at an approved law school, but only if at the conclusion of the semester in which the credits were earned the applicant was in good academic standing, was not on academic probation and was eligible to continue in the school’s degree program.

(d) Vacations. Vacations taken by the applicant in excess of one month in any year of law office study shall be deducted from the period of law office study for which credit shall be given, but if the applicant does not take a vacation there will not be an adjustment in the period of study required by this section.

(e) Certificate of commencement of law office study. It shall be the duty of the attorney or attorneys with whom a period of law office study is about to be commenced to obtain from, complete and file with, the Clerk of the Court of Appeals a certificate of commencement of clerkship, Appendix B-2, infra. At the time the certificate of commencement of clerkship is filed, the applicant shall provide the Court of Appeals with a copy of the determination of the State Board of Law Examiners of the credit to which the applicant is entitled under subdivision (c) of this section.

(f) Credit for law study in law office. Credit shall be given only for study in a law office or offices engaged in after the successful completion of the threshold period of law school study and after the filing of the certificate required by subdivision (e) of this section.

(g) Proof required. Compliance with the requirements of this section shall be proved to the satisfaction of the State Board of Law Examiners.

I would summarize the following points from the original poster...

1) Don't do the work that the professors and the legal education institution, whose expertise you're paying tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars for, feel you should to obtain a quality legal education. (THE SINGLE BIGGEST MISTAKE students make in law school is sinking thousands of hours reading and briefing cases in preparation for class)

2) Flagrantly disregard rules instituted by the school and the accrediting board of law schools ( I did it while working ~30-35 hrs/wk (in flagrant violation of school rules)) (See 304(f) http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publications/misc/legal_education/Standards/2012_standards_chapter_3.authcheckdam.pdf)

The poster states that he is currently in his 2nd year as an attorney and offers statements indicating a highly successful law school career ("graduated with High Honors, got Order of the Coif"). Although his law school is not identified, OP's profile shows a location of Miami. Although certainly not the only possibility, University of Miami is an Order of the Coif member school.

He has no other posts, although acknowledges that this forum helped him alot in his pre-law days. His profile indicates that he only joined LSD yesterday. His sig file is a link to a rather detailed lawyer/law student website, but there is no readily available information identifying the owner/author of said website.

Taken all together and contrasted with my law school experience, I would not credit his response as being suitable for most potential law students. His post suggests that shortcuts and disregarding rules is a way to a successful legal career. It is a method that does work for some. Conversely, some that follow that method grace the disciplinary review pages of my local bar association's newsletter. Relying on not getting caught and exclusively using commercial supplements rather than learning to synthesize the material yourself may have worked for the OP but I question whether the majority of other law students would be satisfied with the results.

JMHO

Addressing this post as an honest request for help and not a humorless hoax, you haven't provided enough information for any reasoned advice...

1) Why were you dismissed? If it was an academic dismissal for poor grades, have you identified the source of the trouble and come up with a solution? If it was a disciplinary dismissal that would impact potential bar admission, that's an even more significant concern.

2) Why do you want to go back to law school? Is there a more affordable alternative that meets your goals? How committed are you to a career in the legal field?

Here's a silly question... how many actual case excerpts have you read? Reading the E&E's and having the black letter law spoonfed to you doesn't compare with actually reading the cases and understanding the reason why a law developed a certain way. One of the things that I felt gave me a leg up, at least initially, was knowing how to brief a case... pulling the procedural and substantive facts from the brief, identifying the issue, identifying the holding, etc... and later when it came to final exams, besides reciting the black letter law, the ability to compare and contrast the fact pattern with the actual assigned cases can score you the crucial easy extra points.

It's a skill that everyone develops quickly in law school, but knowing what I was doing right out of the gate made me feel more comfortable adapting to the learning process of law school.

Good luck.