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Messages - syracuse1L

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11
It's hard to say if kids don't come back because of the curve, or because they 'legitimately' flunk.  Not to sound like a jerk, but this point may be moot.  The underlying reality is that if you are at the bottom 10% of your class at a T4 you should probably drop out anyways, since your chances of passing the bar or being employed as an attorney are extremely low. 

12
158 isn't bad.  Where are you now / headed to?  The sitting still was bad, but seriously, did they have to rip my earplugs?  I can't live without those things.


My average was 162 and I scored a 158.  Weird.

I think mine was just stress and the fact that they made me sit still and be quiet for that long!

13
Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: TIER 5 Law Schools Made Here
« on: July 27, 2006, 05:33:57 PM »
Congrats on getting into Penn, I just glanced at your lawschoolnumbers link.  I have a few buddies who scored in the high 160's, but it was surprising to see them get rejected from Georgetown, Berkley, etc, even with 168s.  One thing I did forget to mention in my post, the reason I applied to Syracuse originally was because they offer a joint masters in International Relations which I plan on doing; so I am actually looking at 150K in debt..


I agree with this sentiment.  I am an incoming 1L at Syracuse, but even that was iffy for me on whether I should retake the LSAT.  While I do not agree with the rankings snobs that rank means everything, becasue I believe once you get beyond the top 15 or so, the differences between the #30 school and #100 school are pretty small.  However, I think the return on investment point is well taken.  I think Syracuse will pay off, though Roger Williams would be another story.  You get to a point where these T4 admissions standards are so low that employers just dont' respect them.  To quote a Columbia educated undergrad professor of mine:  "You have to realize that if you take out $100,000 in loans, you have to pay that back. In all honesty the only way to do that is to make a good living, and statistically speaking you won't do that going to a lowly ranked school."  Finally, I spoke with Tulsa Law soon to be 2L the other day... He hates it, his grades are mediocre and he has no summer internship and said he honestly debated not returning for year 2.  I don't say this to be snobby, but sometimes you gotta give up the dream.


I think that Sammyjenkins makes a point that these tier 4 schools usually don't offer a return on the investment that students put into them.  All one has to do is look at the stats of most tier 4 schools.  BTW, I'm not trying to be an elitist a-hole, I'm merely trying to make a point.  Honestly, I wouldn't go to law school if I only got accepted to a tier 4. 


I agree. Above everything else, law school is an investment. A rather large one at that. So, if you are taking $100,000 out in debt you had been be pretty damn sure you will be able to pay that back (or have a school with a generous LRAP so that at least they can pay it back). If, after one year, your grades are pretty awful and you go to a low ranked school, you should assess your options at that point before deciding whether or not to continue your legal education - even if you love it.

14
Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: TIER 5 Law Schools Made Here
« on: July 27, 2006, 04:45:51 PM »
I agree with this sentiment.  I am an incoming 1L at Syracuse, but even that was iffy for me on whether I should retake the LSAT.  While I do not agree with the rankings snobs that rank means everything, becasue I believe once you get beyond the top 15 or so, the differences between the #30 school and #100 school are pretty small.  However, I think the return on investment point is well taken.  I think Syracuse will pay off, though Roger Williams would be another story.  You get to a point where these T4 admissions standards are so low that employers just dont' respect them.  To quote a Columbia educated undergrad professor of mine:  "You have to realize that if you take out $100,000 in loans, you have to pay that back. In all honesty the only way to do that is to make a good living, and statistically speaking you won't do that going to a lowly ranked school."  Finally, I spoke with Tulsa Law soon to be 2L the other day... He hates it, his grades are mediocre and he has no summer internship and said he honestly debated not returning for year 2.  I don't say this to be snobby, but sometimes you gotta give up the dream.


I think that Sammyjenkins makes a point that these tier 4 schools usually don't offer a return on the investment that students put into them.  All one has to do is look at the stats of most tier 4 schools.  BTW, I'm not trying to be an elitist a-hole, I'm merely trying to make a point.  Honestly, I wouldn't go to law school if I only got accepted to a tier 4. 

15
I spoke to a guy two weeks ago who just finished his first year at Tulsa.  He hates it.  If you want to stay in Oklahoma, attend Tulsa, and I am not saying this to bash on T4's, but just remember that schools which find themselves on the USNWR 4th tier list sometimes implement a 'forced curve,' which is basically a frantic attempt to improve their standing on the USNWR.  After talking to this guy at Tulsa, it sounds like they do this.  Basically; the school intentionally keeps everyone's grades very low in order to prevent people from leaving.  T4 schools know many of their 1L students want to transfer, so in order to stop that they basically give everyone bad grades in order to keep them from getting in anywhere else.  They also sometimes cut the bottom 10% of the class, even if you aren't technically failing, and basically kick you out, just to make sure they maintain somewhat respectable bar passage rates.   

16
October 2005 LSAT
practice average: 158
practice range for the fifteen tests I took:  153-160
Actual score: 154

How many other people did this happen too?  I had heard of the '4 point drop' that you experience in actually taking the real thing, but I didn't think that would happen to me.  I am normally a very good test taker.  I attribute it to: lack of sleep due to nervousness, the fact that I couldn't wear my ear plugs and could hear noises from the room next door, and the puzzles were f*&#@ing hard on the real thing.  I only got 11/23 puzzle questions right.   

17
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Top 100 vs. tier 3.
« on: July 27, 2006, 04:21:09 PM »
After speaking with plenty of law students, recent law grads, and a few law professors; here's what I think.  Once you move beyond the 'elite' schools, the top 15 or so, there is a lot of parody out there.  When I talk to people or hear of their experience at BYU, George Mason, American, Syracuse, etc... it's all about grades and connections.  The actual difference between a school ranked 30 and a school ranked 90 is going to be pretty marginal once you get beyond your personal performance and the things you directly control.  At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you graduate from that #30 school or the #90 school, what matters is where you are relative to your class rank, and what connections you have made.  I think the admissions process does a good job of freaking everyone out too much about rankings, as does the USNWR.... That being said, I would still avoid the bottom feeder schools like the plague

18
LSAT horror stories / Re: Weird LSAT Question irr
« on: July 27, 2006, 04:15:05 PM »
B - has to be the answer

A - this is avoiding the question, which is asking about ENDS, not MEANS
C - irrelevent information
D - besides the point of the argument
E - too much of a logical stretch to include this in a reasonable counter argument

19
LSAT horror stories / Re: October LSAT - harder than usual?
« on: July 27, 2006, 04:09:34 PM »
I thought the puzzle section was more difficult and the other sections were comparable.  I scored a few points below my practice average 159, but was luckily still admitted to one of the schools I was planning on applying to anyways.... just not the top ones.  Did anyone else have a puzzle question dealing with a binary on/off switch?  I remember freaking out on that question because I hadn't seen that caveat before. 

20
I got a 148 on my first practice, but after about ten practice tests was averaging a 159.  I begin at Syracuse in three weeks, which I am happy with, but despite my best efforts, I could never break above the 160 range on my practice tests.  Over time I had to amend my expectations.  My advice is to set reasonable goals.  Don't listen to clowns who tell you about how they studied real hard and 'willed' themselves to a 175 and that anybody can.  I am constantly amazed at how many people lie about their LSAT scores.  Remember, very few people relative to all LSAT takers actually score higher than a 164 or so.  Overall I would say you are better off setting a realistic goal, such as a 160 or something, and just remember that when you actually take the real thing, it is a VERY nerve racking experience and you will likely get a score perhaps 4 points lower than your practice tests, or at least don't be surprised if you do.  That was my experience as well as the experience of 4 of my friends.  Don't kill yourself with stress though, I have friends who refuse to take the LSAT until they get up to the 170s on their practice tests.  These friends have been studying for years and still can't fess up to the fact that it's OK to go to a T2, not everyone goes to Harvard.  Don't kill yourself with stress, set a reasonable and realistic goal and work towards it.  As to how lowly ranked a school you are willing to apply to, that's a personal preference.

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