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Messages - babyeatsdingo

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141
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Do you belive in the Devil
« on: June 20, 2007, 06:06:17 PM »
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Morality is not an absolute; it may be to any individual or even within a particular community, but it does not exist in an objective vacuum at some meta-ethical level.

I take it from this, your intimation toward a sort of moral relativism, that you deny the existence of moral facts. To be clear, do you dispute my second premise?

1. If God is not real then there are no moral facts.
2. There are moral facts.
3. God is real.

142
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Do you belive in the Devil
« on: June 20, 2007, 05:59:10 PM »
This one would logically prove what you are trying to prove (and the conclusion is stated correctly).

1. God is real.
2. Moral facts exist.
3. Without God moral facts cannot exist.
4. Every non-religious worldview (with respect to morality) is false.

My order goes like this:

1. A
2. B
3. ~A > ~B

Whereas your order goes like this:

1. ~A > ~B
2. B
3. A

All you've done is switch the position of the first and third lines. You've not fixed anything.

A worldview includes what they call a meta-ethic. If the meta-ethic is wrong then the worldview to which it belongs is wrong. I argue that every non-religious worldview does meta-ethics wrong and so every non-religious worldview is wrong. So I don't need to restate my original conclusion.

143
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Do you belive in the Devil
« on: June 20, 2007, 05:50:24 PM »
Quote
It could easily go like this:

1. If God is not real then there are no moral facts.
2. There are moral facts.
3. But God isn't real.
4. So the first statement is incorrect.

Echoing 4, I agree that if 3 is true then 1 must be false. Ironically, if you affirm 3 prior to showing 3 then you beg the question, as you say. Moreover, 3 requires you to demonstrate a negative (the non-existence of God), which, if you've read Hume, you know can't be done. Since you can't show 3, the argument is unsound.


144
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Do you belive in the Devil
« on: June 20, 2007, 05:33:36 PM »
Quote
1 is assumed. The implicit assumption is that God is real or 3.

My argument follows the form:

1. ~A > ~B
2. B
3. A

You claim I somehow sneak A into line 2 and/or 1. How so?

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Because if there are moral facts that exist while God does not then 1 cannot be true.

If God does not exist and there are moral facts then my first premise is false which would mean my argument is unsound but even if my argument were false and unsound it wouldn't follow from this that my argument also assumes what it is meant to prove (begging the question, as you say).

I must admit I am surprised we're still talking about this. The argument is clearly valid. The only question is whether the first and second premises are more reasonable than not.

145
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Do you belive in the Devil
« on: June 20, 2007, 05:17:20 PM »
Quote
1. If Blue is not real then there are no mega babes that have big juggs.
2. There are mega babes that have big juggs.
3. Blue is real.
4. Blue likes mega babes that have big juggs.

3 follows from 1 and 2 but 4 is a non sequitur (follows from no premise) so the argument is invalid. If we remove 4 and present the argument thus:

1. If Blue is not real then there are no mega babes that have big juggs.
2. There are mega babes that have big juggs.
3. Blue is real.

then I admit that the argument is valid. But is it sound? If by "mega babes" you mean "beautiful women" and if by "big juggs" you mean "large breasts" then I agree with line 2 since I am married to a beautiful woman with large breasts. Line 1 says that the existence of the color blue is incompatible with the existence of beautiful women. If we admit the existence of beautiful women with large breasts then we must deny that the color blue exists. But since we know the color blue exists, we must instead deny 1. Thus, the argument is unsound.

146
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Do you belive in the Devil
« on: June 20, 2007, 05:02:28 PM »
Quote
"Moral facts"?  Not sure what you mean by that phrase.

Water boils at 100C at sea level. This is a scientific fact. It is true for everyone, everywhere at every time irrespective of what people do or don't believe.

2 + 2 = 4. This is a fact of mathematics. It is true for everyone, everywhere at every time irrespective of what people do or don't believe.

It is wrong to abuse infants for one's own pleasure. This is a moral fact. It is true for everyone, everywhere at every time irrespective of what people do or don't believe.

There are many kinds of facts. A moral fact is a kind of fact.

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Morality refers to the principles and guidelines by which we organize our communities (whether secular or religious), judge others and govern our own behavior.  I'm not suggesting that capital-G God is not a valid source of morality for those who believe in Him, I'm just pointing out that He's not the only source.  Not by a long shot.

I'm not asking for a definition of morality. I ask you to explain how moral facts could obtain if God is not real.

147
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Do you belive in the Devil
« on: June 20, 2007, 04:17:05 PM »
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3 does not stand unless 1 and 2 stand. This means that 3 is assumed by 1 and 2. That is a logical fallacy known as begging the question. That's why I keep saying it.

If 1 and 2 assume 3 then you would see "God is real" somewhere in line 1 and/or 2 but since you don't, neither 1 nor 2 assume 3. Rather, 3 is a valid inference from 1 and 2. I hope this point is clear now.

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How would you like me to argue that abusing infants is morally wrong.

However you may.

Let's look at the argument again:

1. If God is not real then there are no moral facts.
2. There are moral facts.
3. God is real.
4. Every non-religious worldview is false.

1 says there can be no state of affairs where God does not exist and some moral fact also obtains. So let us suppose God does not exist. Can you on this supposition give me an example of a moral fact that you believe will survive close scrutiny?

148
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Do you belive in the Devil
« on: June 20, 2007, 03:58:18 PM »
Quote
Are you serious with this?
As a heart attack.

149
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Do you belive in the Devil
« on: June 20, 2007, 03:46:22 PM »
1. If God is not real then there are no moral facts.
2. There are moral facts.
3. God is real.
4. Every non-religious worldview is false.

3 follows from 1 and 2 by Modus tollens (a rule of inference). 4 is a corollary of 3. The argument is valid. Is it sound? It does not seem any has overtly denied 2 yet but 1 is apparently controversial so let's talk about it. Can there be moral facts without God? If you think so then please explain how the moral judgment "abusing infants for one's own amusement is always wrong" expresses an objective fact apart from an appeal to God.

150
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Do you belive in the Devil
« on: June 20, 2007, 03:27:49 PM »
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But it all relies on assuming he is in fact speaking from a non-religious viewpoint.

The writer is writing from a religious or non-religious point of view. Which is more likely? In view of his phrasing, I'd say the latter. More personal info could tip the balance the other way, however.

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Don't mean to pee in your cornflakes, but it sounds to me as though you're trying to use Big Words and Big Ideas but still aren't saying much of anything.

I use Big Words and Big Ideas so you will think I'm the most awesome anonymous writer you've never met.

I'll boil the winding prose down to four lines each written in small words:

1. If God is not real then there are no moral facts.
2. There are moral facts.
3. God is real.
4. Every non-religious worldview is false.

Quote
Do you honestly believe that one cannot separate morality from religion?

Let me put it this way: atheists can be good people but the term "good" is only meaningful if God is real. If he isn't real then saying someone is good is at best like saying you so happen to like them, which is still no more significant than saying you like chocolate ice cream.

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