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Messages - 1LCorvo

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51
Affirmative Action / Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
« on: March 20, 2007, 01:22:14 AM »

sure he did  ::)

:( MCB disagrees with me

I just deleted a pretty  long response I was going to post. Frankly, it doesn't matter. All I really care about is if I get into a school or not, at this point, and I don't really care who my classmates are. I'm not interested in being the bad guy in this thread.

I'm staying out of AA threads from now on.

Damn, and I was all ready to jump in with my (lower upper class) racial burden, namely that, until you've been spit on, denied service, or various other sundry indignities based on your race, it might behoove you not to presume how much prejudice money can or can't buy off in our fine nation.

Do you think this is enough to justify AA programs? If the admissions process was, indeed, behaving prejudicially against black, then AA might be justified. however, is this the case? Perhaps in the past, but does it still occur today?

52
Affirmative Action / Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
« on: March 19, 2007, 11:01:42 PM »


http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/final/SanderFINAL.pdf

The author is a law school professor who studies race and the law, and his overall conclusion is that AA doesn't help but instead hurts the students it was created to help. Why? Because those students end up in schools where they will struggle, often end up in the bottom of the class, and get a bigger disincentive for being lower ranked in the class than if they'd gone to school with their academic peers and ranked in the middle of the class.
Just one person's opinion, but this is very well reasoned out, and has one of the few places where you can get hard #'s related to LS performance and race.

My personal experience: I know one black student in the top 10% of the class, and both her parents are upper middle class attorneys and doctors. Frankly, she didn't need AA to do well, and was probably going to succeed where ever she went because she was well prepared and frankly, works her a55 off.

This is a controversial article. It was published in 2003, and has received some criticism  (see the following: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=886382. In any case, I was a somewhat skeptical of the final conclusion. It might be the case that African American peform (on average) worse than whites in the first year of law school. But, there are SO many factors that might contribute to why this is. It seems to matter minutely on the school. this is so because presumably each law school has a similar first year curriculum, so it would not seem to matter what tier the school might be. Thus, I reason that their are other factors (like the enviorment) that would contribute greater to a students performance. And, not so much where they are placed; Unless you can prove that Harvard has a tougher curriculum than say Temple.

53
Affirmative Action / Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
« on: March 19, 2007, 10:51:11 PM »
Quote from: 1LCorvo on Today at 08:03:38 PM
African Americans, today, have gained so much. Sure, we do not have thirty members in the senate, but we are making strides in many other professions. I think this is particularly noticable among middle class African Americans; and hence the disutility of a program such as AA.

I'm not exactly clear as to how the moderate gains blacks have made over the past 40 years justify an outright dissolution of AA programs.  I'd be interested in hearing more about this though.

I am certainly not advocating the outright dissolution of AA programs. However, I do
believe that AA programs should be geared toward students who need it more (i.e. students from lower class families)-regardless of race. With that said, I think a proportionate number of blacks benefited from AA programs of the past, and it would seem reasonable to suggest that their offspring ought not to need it. Yet, it seems as if AA programs are being recycled. So, those who benefited from it in the past are continuing to benefit (well at least their offspring). And, I’m pretty confident that there is a general approbation on the classic “Michael Jordan Sons Case”. That is, most would agree that AA programs should not benefit the offspring of parents that are incredibly rich (i.e. Michael Jordan) over a poor ____ child from the ghetto.


Quote from: 1LCorvo on Today at 08:03:38 PM
As longshot was trying to state, middle class blacks usually enjoy a financial burden-less (not to say that they are immune to financial problems) life comparable to middle class whites. Which, theoretically, ought to put them in a better academic situation than say poor whites and asians. This, in turn, should translate into higher LSAT scores and UGPAs.
I've never seen anyone in the middle class living a financially burdenless life, particularly in the black middle class which has not yet achieved parity with the white middle class.  That aside, I think your last points get closer to substantive issues.  The real question that you are raising here is, then why do black applicants on average have lower LSATs and GPAs than the rest of the population, even of students from lower social classes.  This is an idea worth discussing because, barring any ludicrous claims of genetic/innate inferiority, it raises the issue that there must be some other mitigating factors (internal or external to the black applicant pool) at work.

Burdenless is a terrible word to use (is it even a word?). A clearer term might be financial stable. However, being financial stable rest on a continuum. So, there are some people who barely worry (i.e. paying the bills) about finances-think Bill Gates. While, there might exist those who are living pay check to pay check.
In any case, the LSAT/GPA discrepancies among white/Asian and black law applicants are unexplained phenomena. However, do you think the comfort of AA might contribute to black students and their performance on the LSAT. That is, since black students can rely somewhat on AA programs to gain seats into top programs, they do not stress as much over the LSAT (probably study less). It is sort like when you have a tough older brother. So, at times, you feel like you can get away with murder. That’s just one possible explanation. I’m confident that there are many more.



Quote from: 1LCorvo on Today at 08:03:38 PM
In any case, it seems erroneous to argue that African American's have different life experience because of their skin color.

I could accept this statement were we not living in a country founded on a racial caste system.  It would think it would be erroneous to make rash judgments about a particular individual, but quite acceptable to speak about the increased likelihood of members of a group on average to be dealing with a set of conditions known to be present within a racial caste system.
I agree (though hesitantly)

Quote from: 1LCorvo on Today at 08:03:38 PM
This supposes that blacks have experiences that raise awareness to the fact that they black.
I've never met a black person in this country who was completely unaware that they were black.  Unaccepting perhaps.  Unaware, doubtful!

I should have been more specific. “Blackness” is a loaded and often poorly explained concept. The term black could mean a few things depending on the person. Some might view being black as purely genetic (scientific); while others will might add more characteristics (such as a common historical bond, accepted behavior/language, etc.). There seems to be a divide between the purely scientific concept and the metaphysical/theoretical concept. So, when I said that some blacks are “unaware that they are black”, I was referring to the theoretical/metaphysical concept of black. I hope that makes some sense. It seemed like a coherent thought when I was reflecting on it….


54
Affirmative Action / Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
« on: March 19, 2007, 08:03:38 PM »
A great deal has been said since my latest comments. In any case, I think Captain Longshot has a point (albeit a deceptively valid and good one).

In seems as if the main thesis for those who defend AA is that MOST blacks (despite economic status) still suffer in this country. One might easily look at the number of black students who attend law school, and subsequently go on to practice law. Thus, AA is justified because of the fact that blacks (of any class) are still second, or maybe third, class citizens. However, there's a HUGE problem with this reasoning, that is to say, it is not quite right. African Americans, today, have gained so much. Sure, we do not have thirty members in the senate, but we are making strides in many other professions. I think this is particularly noticable among middle class African Americans; and hence the disutility of a program such as AA.

Suffice it to say that middle class blacks have a different experience than lower (poor) class blacks. They are usually better educated, with more access to resources. As longshot was trying to state, middle class blacks usually enjoy a financial burden-less (not to say that they are immune to financial problems) life comparable to middle class whites. Which, theoretically, ought to put them in a better academic situation than say poor whites and asians. This, in turn, should translate into higher LSAT scores and UGPAs.

In any case, it seems erroneous to argue that African American's have different life experience because of their skin color. This supposes that blacks have experiences that raise awareness to the fact that they black. Moreover, this also supposes that these "experiences" will lead to something intriguing about the person, which might add to the diversity of a law class. Again, none of this follows. Being black doesn't necessarily lead to having a distinct burdensome black experience (whatever that means).

Excuse me if I've gone off a tangent. I'm not even sure what my original purpose was...but I do look forward to you ripping me apart.

55
Affirmative Action / Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
« on: March 18, 2007, 06:35:22 PM »
I want to note a few things:

(1) A strong correlation does not imply necessary causation. Most of us are familiar with the dreaded LSAT, so this should be standard knowledge. Thus, even if one's presently held belief strongly correlate to actions inspired, it does not follow that they direct certain actions. Moreover, it is debatable that this claim applies to everyone. It might be the case that some people act in accordance to their presently held beliefs. But, again, it does not follow that all people will act. More importantly, it does not follow that they will always act in conjunction with their presently held beliefs. I'm not arguing that beliefs do not affect actions. Yet, I'm arguing that it does not necessarily follow...

(2) Even if I committ a similar fallacy (which is debatable), it does absolve you of the fact that you still committed the fallacy.
I trust that this isn't your argument is not as follows:

P1: You commited fallacy X, therefore your reasoning is flawed
P2: Well you committed fallacy X at time t, therefore your reasoning is also flawed
P1: However, you still committed the fallacy, so how will you fix your logic
P2: Well, you still committed the same fallacy, so how will you fix your logic too!
...ad infinitum

Invoking that I committed the same fallacy isn't a defense; it is a fallacy (see tu quoque fallacy). Pointing out fallacies can be annoying and fastidious. However, it is something that must be done to ensure reasonable and responsible discussion.

(3) I concede that we will probably gain little from this discussion. I'm sure I've done little to convert any of you to my position. And,suffice it to say that much has not changed on my side of the park as well. However, in due time, one must admit that AA will become obsolete for some. I think this applies to middle class blacks, just like it applies to middle class white females. But, only time will tell. In the end, however, I appreciate the discussion; and perhaps, I'll see you (meaning all) down the road.

56
Affirmative Action / Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
« on: March 18, 2007, 03:27:39 PM »
However, any student of David Hume ...

I was only at the University of Edinburgh for a semester, but I still get a warm and fuzzy feeling every time I hear this guy's name mentioned. :-D



BTW, David Hume is a fantastic philosopher...

57
Affirmative Action / Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
« on: March 18, 2007, 03:26:17 PM »
However, any student of David Hume ...

I was only at the University of Edinburgh for a semester, but I still get a warm and fuzzy feeling every time I hear this guy's name mentioned. :-D


Midgets are also underrepresented, ought we to create legislation to ensure that they are represented. How about basketball players? Your reasoning is apparently flawed.
How you perform academically is ultimately tied to your available resources. If you have to money to afford a tutor, you purchase one. When does race become a factor? Are schools denying blacks the opportunity to learn? Perhaps in 1947, but not in 2007 (maybe in isolated events). However, middle class blacks do not suffer from the same economic obstacles that poor whites, asians, latinos, and blacks suffer from.

Moreover, I never argued that there should not be AA. That's a presumption on your part (also a straw-man fallacy). If AA is to exist, it must not be tied to race. All blacks do not need AA. Some blacks might need it, but not all. And, if they do need it, it is not because they are black. But, for other reasons like poverty.

I was going to reply to that one as well. As I said, Michael Jordan's kid doesn't need AA. He's rich no matter what. If he's an idiot and can't pass a class, he's going to be well-off. His dad went to college. He will go to college most likely. He can get tutors, go to an SAT class and a Prep School.

If you want to increase the number of black families in middle-class suburban and upper-class neighborhoods, you need to bring kids out of the lower-class inner-cities.

In fact, allowing AA to benefit rich or middle-class kids really only takes that opportunity away from a poor kid in the Bronx who needs it more.

Intuitively, those that benefit from something, will not want to let it go. In the process, they'll use anything (even bad reasoning) to justify why that something should remain the same. For instance, slave owners (and those who benefited) argued that the bible justify slavery. It is a natural thing to do. So, I sort of understand why middle class blacks tend to feverently defend AA. However, CL already noted, supporting how AA is currently practiced, may be a detrement to those who really need it.

58
Affirmative Action / Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
« on: March 18, 2007, 03:03:32 PM »
all blacks need AA-- they are still underrepresented in most professional careers especially black men and most black people are middle class- they don't have the contacts that old white guys have. I grew up in a black upper class family and it's just stupid to think that there shouldn't be AA because of your economic staus. Its based on race. When I am no longer the only black on the block or the only black at my school then maybe I will agree with you but until then....

Midgets are also underrepresented, ought we to create legislation to ensure that they are represented. How about basketball players? Your reasoning is apparently flawed.
How you perform academically is ultimately tied to your available resources. If you have to money to afford a tutor, you purchase one. When does race become a factor? Are schools denying blacks the opportunity to learn? Perhaps in 1947, but not in 2007 (maybe in isolated events). However, middle class blacks do not suffer from the same economic obstacles that poor whites, asians, latinos, and blacks suffer from.

Moreover, I never argued that there should not be AA. That's a presumption on your part (also a straw-man fallacy). If AA is to exist, it must not be tied to race. All blacks do not need AA. Some blacks might need it, but not all. And, if they do need it, it is not because they are black. But, for other reasons like poverty.

59
Affirmative Action / Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
« on: March 18, 2007, 02:53:36 PM »
I've never been too fond of African Americans in the upper (middle) class. There is something rather duplicitous about them, yet I cannot put my finger on it. 

:-\ I wonder what kind of world we'd have if people in real positions of power--teachers, professors, policemen, judges, managers, supervisors, storekeepers, insurance agents, salesmen, medical professionals, lawyers, politicians, etc.--felt the the same way.  What kind of a mess would we really be in if people had the  unmitigated discretion and authority to make decisions consistent with their disdain (or, as you put it, lack of "fondness") for a particular group?  Imagine the way such attitudes from cradle to grave would likely affect the life chances of people from the impacted group.  Imagine why there would be a need for some measure to ensure that your highly subjective (and perhaps baseless) lack of "fondness" doesn't get a free pass to rear its ugly head unrestrained and unchecked whenever it fancies you to do so.


This is extraneous to the main discussion. However, even if I am not fond of a group's actions, it does not follow that I will deny them an opportunity of any sort. Moreover, it does not follow that legislation is needed to ensure that they'll receive these opportunities. For instance, I might despise Dennis Rodman's antics off the court, but when he gets on the court, it is an entirely different ball game.

Race based AA presumes that how whites treated blacks in the past will continue in the future. However, any student of David Hume will note there is a fallacy in that type of reasoning. One cannot project past regularities onto the future (neither deductive nor inductive reasoning ensures such a position). And, I reckon that many african americans (primarily those that benefit, apropos middle class blacks) will continue to use such logic (albeit fallacious logic).

60
Affirmative Action / Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
« on: March 18, 2007, 01:52:21 AM »
 
 Middle class african americans DON'T need AA programs. It does not make much sense to give a person an unfair advantage, when the resources are obtainable. It seems to beg the question. If one has the available resource to excel (academically), then it is rather unjust to give assistance to those who do not really need it. Nevertheless, it does not seem to follow that a person should receive help because of their race; apropos their skin color. Since it does not follow, it is not a legitimate argument to justify providing AA for all african americans. Those who deserve the advantage, are those who are poor (who live in impoverished areas)-regardless of race.

I suppose that race based AA is rather antiquated and injurious. My arguments aren't new, but I would like to hear some rebuttals from blacks, whom seem to benefit from AA (when they do not need it)...I make this claim because (presumably) middle class AA tend to go to law school at a higher rate than poorer AA. If it is your desire, correct me when I have erred.

BTW, I am an African American dude; born in the ghetto of Newark NJ. But, this certainly ought not vitiate my claims.

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