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Messages - livinglegend

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71
Law School Admissions / Re: Going to law after pharmacy school?
« on: July 24, 2013, 01:54:16 PM »
Maintain makes some good points and two questions to ask yourself is what is a good job? If your career goal is to work at Cravath or some major law firm then T14 would be the way to go, but believe it or not 90% of practicing lawyers did not attend the top 10% of law schools. If you want to be a City Attorney, Medical Malpractice Attorney, Public Defender, the list goes on and on then you don't have to attend a T14 school and you would probably be better off getting a scholarship at a lower ranked school than attending a T14 if you aspired to be a government attorney or start your own firm etc. It all depends on what you deem a "good job".

Second as Maintain asks why do you want to go to law school? I was actually thinking of a few of my law school classmates yesterday and the ones that are least happy are those that never choose a path. I cannot tell you how many people I went to law school with that said they didn't really want to be a lawyer, which would always beg the question what are you doing here then? Sure you can learn a lot and law school can lead you into different avenues, but there are cheaper and less time constraining ways to figure out what you want than attending law school. So really ask yourself do you really want to be a lawyer if the answer is yes then go for it.

However, you should also consider your debt. I imagine pharmacy school is expensive and law school is not any cheaper and even if you got a job at a major law firm you will likely have accumulated more than $500,000 in debt that is accumulating interest.

There is no right or wrong answer, but you have to ask yourself why law school and assess your debt situation. Good luck.

72
If Biglaw really is your goal then I would look at the firms you are interested in working and see if they have BU graduates working there. Cravath for example has 7 BU attorneys and 14 from Georgetown just one firm, but really investigate the firms you are interested in working in and see how many graduates are working there.

I also have to ask why do you want to work in Biglaw? Do you know what Biglaw entails? If you don't I would highly recommend meeting with attorneys at BigLaw firms you are interested in contact both schools and ask for an alumni list. Meet with them ask about their jobs and see if Biglaw is really what you want. Biglaw is great for some, but for many others it is awful.

Also in reality odds are you won't end up in Biglaw from either one. You will likely need to end up in at least the top 25% of the class from either school to get into Biglaw and there is a 75% chance you will not end up in the top 25% at either school.

Also one thing you might want to consider is negotiating for more scholarship money and better scholarship conditions from BU. If you tell them you are considering Georgetown they are likely to give you more money and also pay attention to the conditions what are they to keep your 15k per year?

It is important to negotiate as 0L since you have all the bargaining power, but once you enroll it is gone so push for a little more money from BU, but once your in school your bargaining power is gone.

Again, there is no right answer and those are just some considerations.

73
If you look on lawschoolnumbers.com it looks like you have a good shot. Lawschoolnumbers.com is a good site to obtain more detailed information regarding law school admission than LSAC in my opinion.

Your URM status will also help, but one thing to consider is applying to lower ranked schools and obtaining scholarship money. One thing to know is that law school rankings mean very little in the real world, but the law school debt you incur does so try to minimize it the best you can.

Good luck in your legal career.

74
Law School Admissions / Re: Graphic designer applying for law school
« on: July 17, 2013, 10:11:58 PM »
Your profession and major mean very little in the law school admission process. It really comes down to Undergraduate GPA and LSAT. When I was in law school my classmates had been journalists, graphic designers, engineers, etc.

Getting into a T14 school is very difficult and you will need to have at least a 3.5 undergrad GPA and score in the top 10% of LSAT takers, which is unlikely. I hope you get into a T14 school, but the likelihood of that happening is minimal, but that doesn't mean you can't have a successful legal career. 90% of practicing lawyers did not attend the top 10 law schools.

75
Transferring / Re: Emory or WashU for Tfer
« on: July 17, 2013, 06:58:52 PM »
(4) Professional Goals:
What does your brother want to do in his legal career? If he wants BigLaw or Clerkship then I think Emory has a bit more prestige than UW, but biglaw is hard to come by and most people hate it. If your brother wants to be a Public Defender or City Attorney he may want to stay at the school he is attending and negotiate for scholarship money. There are a lot of career paths in the legal field, but if your straddled with outrageous debt it can limit opportunities.

U.S. News Rankings

You mentioned ranking as a factor in your post, but please realize U.S. News is a for-profit and unregulated magazine offering an opinion nothing more. It should not be the basis of a life altering decision. To illustrate this U.S. News ranks more than law schools and has ranked Albuquerque New Mexico as the #1 place to live see here http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/real-estate/articles/2009/06/08/best-places-to-live-2009 they had their reasons none of which are crazy, but you are probably not going to move to Albuquerque because U.S. News ranked it #1 making the life altering decision to move to a new city based on a magazine would seem a bit crazy.

Making the life altering decision of what law school to attend based on what a magazine says makes as much sense. The U.S. News formula makes little to no sense and I personally have no idea what difference in rank there is between UW and Emory nor do I care. Both schools are fine and UW being 38th and Emory being 46th would make no difference especially since the numbers will change next year and it would be not be surprising at all if the lower ranked school was ranked higher next year when your brother is a 3L.

Bottom line do not place much stock in the rankings when choosing a law school.

Reality of Legal Education

Your brother finished his 1L at an ABA school I have no idea which one he attended, but I am sure he learned about personal jurisdiction in the International Shoe Case, he learned proximate cause in Palsgraf, and he learned Notice in Pennoyer v. Neff.

The reality is that at any ABA school you will learn the same thing law school is reading Supreme Court cases and understanding them. The Supreme Court does not write separate opinions for each law school and whether your brother stays where he is, Emory, or UW he will more or less learn the same thing.

When he graduates whether from his current school, UW, or Emory he will then signup for Kaplan or Barbri and study with law students from across the country for a bar exam for a few months. Then he wil be in a room with thousands of other law students from across the country taking a bar exam and if he passes he is a lawyer. If he doesn't he will have to retry none of the schools will guarantee passage or a job it will be up to him to pass the bar and succeed as a lawyer.

Conclusion:
This is a huge decision and if his ultimate goal is to end up in D.C. he should get as close geographically to D.C as possible so Emory would be better than UW. If his current school is in D.C. then he would probably be better off staying there.

However, if he is not hell bent on practicing in D.C. UW is significantly cheaper than Emory and the debt is real. However, he can likely command scholarship money from his current school and that may be an option.

There is no right answer, but it should be a simple matter of the 4k scholarship and U.S. News ranking that makes this huge decision. I wish your brother good luck in his legal career.


76
Transferring / Re: Emory or WashU for Tfer
« on: July 17, 2013, 09:25:05 AM »
Maintain makes some good points, which I will expand upon. Additionally, the decision your brother is going to make is going be a life altering choice and whatever any anonymous internet poster says on this board or others should be taken with a grain of salt. With that said I am an attorney and do think there are some factors that any law student should consider when choosing what law school to attend and there are additional considerations for transferring.

A transfer student like a OL should in my opinion consider the following factors in this order. (1) Location (2) Cost (3) Personal Feelings about the School and whether transfering is appropriate is something else to consider. (4) What they want out of their legal career (5) Last and Least U.S. News Rankings and then he should understand the reality of legal education. I will analyze these factors in more detail below.

1) Location
This far and away the most important factor when choosing a law school and as your post indicates he wants to end up in D.C. If he attends law school in Seattle or Atlanta the door to D.C. it will be difficult to obtain employment in D.C. If he really wants to work in D.C. he should attend law school in D.C. plain and simple. There are no shortage of law schools in that area and employers are not going to actively recruit some kid in Seattle or Atlanta when there are 1,000's of people applying for jobs right in front of them.

I review resumes and grant interviews and when I see someone from out-of-state I don't usually interview them. I don't want to spend money to fly someone out first and foremost I am in the Bay Area and there are numerous law schools right here why would I fly someone out from Iowa? Additionally, is the applicant serious will they really be able to move their whole life from Iowa to the Bay Area again why risk them flaking after flying them out etc when there are no shortage of quality applicants right here. The same is true with D.C. so I don't think either school will help your brother find employment in D.C. Instead attending law school in D.C. will allow him to build connections in D.C. and make employers look at him more closely.

Other factors to consider are that Atlanta and Seattle are two very different cities. I don't know where your brother is currently attending school either and law school does not exist in a vacuum the pros and cons of each City will impact his life for the next two years. Will the constant rainy weather of Seattle depress your brother? Will he fit into Southern Culture in Atlanta? These are real questions particularly because odds are if he attends Washington or Emory he will stay in that location. He will get an apartment, study for the bar in the state he graduates law school from etc. He is also likely to get into a romantic relationship, which might bind him to the area upon graduation. So those are factors to consider.

2) Cost
Emory is 45k per year 26k for living expenses according to LSAC if your brother can get residency in Washington State tuition at UW is only 26k and living costs are only 18k. Even at an out-of-state rate tuition at UW is only 40k.

Therefore it is possibly your brother could save 54,000 by attending Washington over two years if he gets residency and he will save a total of 26k over two years even if he doesn't get residency so the 4k per year package isn't much of a consideration. Either way Washington is significantly cheaper and I assume he is getting loans so there is interest on this money, which makes it even more significant.

Bottom line Washington will be cheaper so that is a factor to consider.


(3) Personal Feelings about School and Transferring:

Every school has a culture to it and as 0L and mock trial competitor and even as an attorney I go to various law schools all the time. There are many I like and others I hate, but those are my feelings plenty of people love the places I hate and vice versa.

If your brother is set  on transferring he should visit both schools talk to students, professors, tour the campus, and see what school feels right for him. What feels right for him is highly personal and the only way for him to know is by visiting the schools.

With that it sounds like your brother is thriving at his current school if he is able to transfer up he was likely in the top of the class and has probably made friends etc. Law school is a lot like high school and if he transfer to these schools as a 2L the social clicks etc will be formed. If he is moving out-of-state to these schools where he doesn't know anybody it could be a tough two years for him and his grades may slip etc. IF your brother is extremely outgoing and social that may not be an issue, but many transfer students struggle the majority I know regret their decision to transfer, but there are many people that were pleased with it.

If his current law school is in D.C. and he wants to end up there it would be an additional reason not to transfer. Additionally, if he stayed at his current school usually the top 10% or so students transfer and his class rank will then shoot up, which will be attractive to employers. He could also negotiate for scholarship money from his current school

-Got to go finish this later-



(4) Professional Goals



77
Law School Admissions / Re: Academic Misconduct Affect on Admissions
« on: July 17, 2013, 09:01:24 AM »
Agree with Irrx there were people in my law school that got DUI's and were admitted to law school and passed there moral character exam and others who had arrests. The only way you can really screw it up is by not disclosing these things. By honest forthcoming and apologetic it shouldn't be a problem, but one thing you should NOT DO is fail to disclose this in your law school application.  The one thing that will hurt you is lying that is something every State Bar Association will take seriously.

These events certainly won't help you, but they won't hurt you that much if your forthcoming and honest about these violations.

78
Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Did I make the right decision?
« on: July 16, 2013, 07:11:20 PM »
First off realize this is your life and you know better than any anonymous internet poster giving advice on this board or others myself included. With that said I am an attorney and think there are some factors that every 0L should consider when choosing a law school. These factors are in the following order (1) Location (2) Cost (3) Personal Feelings about the School (4) What you want out of your legal career (5) U.S. News Rankings and not necessarily a factor, but understanding the reality of legal education. Each of these factors are analyzed below.

1) Location
It does sound like you have this pretty well established and you will be studying in New York. I see many students consider Gonzaga or Miami and not understanding the vast differences between the two locations. So this is not as big a factor in your decision, but living in New York I imagine you realize the difference between attending a law school located in upper Manhattan v. Bedstudy Brooklyn, but this goes more to factor 3 than 1.

2. Cost
This is a major factor and the scholarship is something to consider Brooklyn is 48k per year and Fordham is actually cheaper at 47k per year according to LSAC, but 45k pear year from Brooklyn will result in almost no debt for you, which would be amazing. However, BEWARE OF SCHOLARSHIP CONDITIONS this often mislead law students. Many law schools will give you a condition such as you must maintain a 3.0 GPA or finish in some percentage of the class. The 3.0 requirement is usually the most tricky almost every incoming law student at any ABA school obtained a 3.0 while in undergrad in their sleep. Therefore, 100% of 0L's believe they will get a 3.0 in law school. However, unlike undergrad law school has a curve typically schools allow only 35% of their class to have a 3.0 GPA at the end of first year. Everybody could do A work, but only 35% of the class will get A's bottom line.

Even knowing that 100% of incoming law students at any ABA school are smart, hard-working, and motivated and on the first day 100% of students will truly believe they will be in the top 10% and there is no way they could finish outside the top 35%, but that will be the case for 65% of the students. So bottom line check out what if any conditions are part of this Brooklyn Scholarship. If it is a full ride no conditions attached that is really something to consider, but schools like everyone else don't generally hand out 100k without some stipulation. So I would ask as many questions about the condition as possible if you don't ask they won't tell you. Additionally this NY times article does a good job explaining the system. http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/index.php?topic=4027890.msg5406028#new

3) Personal Feelings about the School
In your situation with Location and cost being a major issue I don't know if this is an important, but it is something to consider. Each school has a culture to it as 0L there were many schools I liked and others I didn't. I have been to both Fordham and Brooklyn Law school and the campuses are very different as are the cultures of each school. I think Fordham is a much more prestigious school and if you want to be in a BigLaw environment etc that is probably the better environment for you. More of a streetfighter type litigator etc might prefer Brooklyn. I don't know you personally and nobody knows what will suit your style better than yourself so visit both schools talk to professors, students, tour the campus, etc and see what school feels right for you.


4) What you want out of your legal career

You mention Big Law aspirations and certainly Fordham will provide more BigLaw opportunities than Brooklyn although I don't think Fordham competes with Harvard, Yale, NYU, Columbia etc, so odds are you will not land a big law job from either school, but Fordham will provide a fighting chance Brooklyn probably not. 

However, I know plenty of people that wanted Big Law and went into it and couldn't stand it. If you pass up the money for Fordham you may be stuck in a job you hate. I would try and reach out to some big law lawyers and see if it really is something you want. The paychecks sound great, but many are utterly misreable I have many Harvard friends who left after a year or two to go in-house, work for the AG, or various other jobs and they might have been better served taking scholarship money opposed to the Harvard education. Again, it is up to you.

5) U.S. News Rankings:
Remember this is a for-profit unregulated magazine offering an opinion nothing more so don't make a life altering decision based on it. To be perfectly honest I don't even know if Fordham is ranked higher than Brooklyn, but I know the campus is much nicer at Fordham, which shows how much ranking matters in the real world. You can certainly consider it, but the rankings change so much year to year and the rankings are truly based on nothing other than people filling out scantrons of 1-5 on schools they never interacted with. That is the system so don't take it to seriously.

6) Reality of Legal Education
A final point to understand is that at any ABA school you will learn the same thing. Whether you attend Fordham or Brooklyn your first year will consist of Torts, Contracts, Property, Civil Procedure, etc and in these courses you will read Supreme Court cases. Palsgraf f to learn proximate cause in Torts, Pennoyer v. Neff to learn about Notice in Civ pro, International Shoe to learn about personal jurisdiction, Hadley v. Baxendale to learn about contract remedies so on and so on. So there really isn't a "better education" the law is the law.

At the end of your three years you will then sign up for Barbri or Kaplan to help you with Bar Review then you will sit in a class with law students from Touro, NYLS, Brooklyn, Fordham, NYU, Columbia, and Cardozo then you after months of studying you will go into a room with 1,000 or so other bar takers from the same schools and hope you pass the exam. If you do you will then be granted a bar card whether you attended Touro or Columbia if you fail you will be given one. If you get one you will have a license to practice law and what you do with that will depend much more on you than the name of the school on your diploma.

Conclusion:
I am some guy on the internet and this decision will impact 3 years of your life, 100k + of your money, and shape your legal career. Therefore, I will not even think of telling you what to do, but find out what the scholarship conditions are first and foremost then consider the factors above along with anything else you deem important when making your choice.

Congrats on your acceptances to law school and good luck in your legal career.

79
This is a difficult decision and realize that this is your life so take any anonymous internet poster advice on this board or others mine included with a grain of salt. With that said I am an attorney and have some experience, but I have never been to Boston or set foot on the Georgetown Campus, but I think there are some universal principals any 0L should consider when choosing a law school that I will outline below.

When choosing a law school I believe a student should consider the following factors in this order (1) Location of school. (2) Cost of School. (3) Personal Feelings about the School (4) Last and least U.S. News Rankings. (5) You should also be aware of the reality of legal education and all of these I will outline below.

Location:
From your post it appears you are interested in working in the New England Area and I assume that you are either living in the New Engalnd or want to live in the New England Area. This is important to know since whatever law school you attend you will be spending a minimum of three years of your life there and more than likely the majority of your legal career will be spent in that location.

So you have to ask yourself where would you rather live for three years and maybe spend a substantial part of your life D.C. or Boston? Both have different pros and cons, but you have family and friends in Boston that will make your law school experience easier and also remember that whatever shcool you attend it does exist in a vaccuum whatever friends, family, connections you have in either location is something to consider as is the culture of each City. Which one do you feel more comfortable living in that is a question only you can answer and especially over three years you are likely to get an apartment you like, enter a relationship, etc and you will likely stay in the City you attend law school. Again, what City you like more is a question only you can answer.

2. Cost
Georgetown is 46k per year in tuition while Boston is cheaper and 15k improves the cost factor even more. However, one thing to look at is the condition on the 15k scholarship I am guessing like most law schools it requires a GPA requirement or you to attain a certain class rank. The most common stipulation I see is a 3.0 GPA requirement, which most 0L's think will be a breeze to attain, but unlike undergrad law school has a mandatory curve and generally only 35% of the class can have a 3.0 GPA. Again like most 0L's you and 100% of  your classmates will sincerely believe they will be in the top 10% and there is no way you could possibly finish in outside of the top 35%, but students at every ABA law school are smart, hard-working, and motivated. So there is a 65% chance you will not finish in the top 35% and you will lose the scholarship for years two and three. So if this is scholarship is an option ask as many question as possible regarding the conditions.

Then look at the cost of both schools and consider how much debt you are going into. These are large numbers and if there are favorable conditions a total of 45k over three years and the cheaper cost of BU tuition is something to consider, but again it is a question you have to answer for yourself.

3. Personal Feelings about School
It sounds like you enjoy the prospect of attending BU and I can tell you from my experience as a OL and participating in mock trial competitions that each school has a culture to it and some you will like others you will not. Again that is personal I know there were some schools I loved and others I hated, but you may have loved what I hated and hated what I loved. It is three years of your life so make sure you will enjoy the school visit both campuses, talk to students, professors, and see how you personally feel about them don't listen to internet posters, magazines, etc it is your life and nobody knows better than you what environment will suit you best.

4) U.S. News
I personally think rankings are absolutely irrelevant as it is a for-profit unregulated magazine offering an opinion, but Georgetown is a school that has a national reputation and can open the door to BigLaw, Federal Clerkships, and other opportunities that may not be as easily available from BU, but are those positions you are even interested in? If you want to be a public defender, D.A, or City Attorney, Family lawyer, or something else then paying the extra money for Georgetown doesn't make any sense. However, if you aspire to join up with Cravath, or O'Melveny & Meyers or some other firm then I think Georgetown will provide you with more opportunities than BU will.

However, for the majority of legal jobs they want you to pass the bar. Georgetown will give you a leg up in many positions, but there will be some positions that will think your overqualified. Again, I don't know your professional goals, but that is something to consider.

Reality of Legal Education
At BU, Georgetown, or any other school you will learn the same thing. Your first year will be torts, contracts, civil procedure, etc and you will read Supreme Court cases and they do not write seperate opinions for different schools. At the end of your three years whether you attend BU, Georgetown or any other school you will then likely use BarBri or Kaplan along with every other law student in America to pass the bar exam. If you succeed on the bar you will then be given a law license.

Conclusion:
Choosing a law school is a difficult prospect and certainly Georgetown has a prestige factor that is something to consider, but listen to your gut when visiting the schools, consider costs, and what city you want to live in. There is no right answer and both are great options congrats on your acceptances and good luck whatever you decide.

80
Black Law Students / Re: Chance at FSU?
« on: July 10, 2013, 10:26:17 AM »
Well one thing to careful about with scholarships is the condition that are attached. Typically it will be something alone the lines of maintaining a 3.0 GPA for your first year to maintain your full-ride for years 2 & 3. As a 0L unfamiliar with law school getting a 3.0 sounds like a piece of cake, but most schools only allow 35% of the class to have a 3.0 at the end of first year. Again as someone that was admitted to law school you and 100% of your classmates at any school will be smart, hard-working, and motivated and 100% of them on the first day think they will be in the top 10% of the class and there is no way they would not finish in the top 35%, but there is a 65% chance you will not finish in the top 35% and a 50% chance you will finish in the bottom half of the class. Nothing against you just the simple realities of law school. I think the NY times does a better job explaining the merit scholarship system than I can in this article. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/business/law-school-grants.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 . They really rip Golden Gate in this article, but this practice is done by almost every law school I am aware of.

The bottom line is whatever scholarship you receive look at the conditions and ASK QUESTIONS about it. Law school is a business and they will do whatever they can to attract you to the school and do what they can within the rules to get the scholarship removed. I don't think it is a shady practice personally and as a law student you need to really ask questions about whatever conditions there are.

As for Bar Passage and Employment Stats again I think those are highly misleading as well. If a school has a below 50% rate then an issue might be present, but the reality is passing the bar is far more up to the individual than the school. As I mentioned at any of these schools you will learn the same exact thing then enroll in Barbri or Kaplan and the bar is "f****ng hard and you have to put in probably 10 hours a day for 2 months straight and no school can force you do that it will be up to you.

The same with finding a job none of these schools will result in the red carpet being rolled out for you and it will be up to you to find a job. Honestly, most normal people I have meet from every caliber of law school in the Bay Area wind up with a legal job of some sort. I never been to Florida so maybe it is different there, but I imagine it is pretty similar to the Bay Area. Also remember the stats mean very little as they can be manipulated to no end and most importantly law grads are under no obligation to report their employment and once studying for the bar and starting out as a lawyer you will be hustling and not want to spend the time to fill out an employment survey that is voluntary.

Some people do I didn't when I graduated I meant to, but I imagine you have had many things in your life where you say I will send that Birthday Card or make that phone call and days turn into weeks turn into months and the report never gets sent in. The majority of my classmates did the same thing so these stats are not very accurate since the majority of students don't report.

So with all that you want to visit all the schools on your list and see what the conditions on scholarships are if you can have guaranteed In-State tuition that is pretty awesome as the pressure will be off. Make sure you could live in Miami , Fort Lauderdale, or Tallahassee for three years and make sure the school is a good fit for you.

Most importantly of all there is no right answer to what school to choose there is no secret at any of these schools if you graduate you will be able to take the bar exam and become a lawyer. What you do with your law license will be much more up to you than the name on your diploma.




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