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Messages - livinglegend
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« on: February 25, 2013, 07:35:45 PM »
Ok again the survey you produced shows a total of 18% of reported salaries for lawyers then means 82% are unaccounted for. This does not necessarily mean they are unemployed either as I have detailed my own experience I am a working attorney and I simply never bothered to fill out the survey detailing all my personal financial information to my school. Most people just move on from their school start working, hang out with their friends, girlfriends, etc the survey is voluntary to fill out and as displayed only 18% of people reported.
Furthermore, of the 18% that reported the mean salary was 78,000 in 2011, which was the worst year for legal employment. In 2009 the mean was 93,000, but again this is based on only 30% of people reporting. These numbers are highly inaccurate because they are based on little information. Furthermore, lawyers are paid by their abilities and it can range 0 to well over 100,000 and it just depends on each person these statistics mean very, very, little.
« on: February 25, 2013, 07:28:39 PM »
MBA & Accounting tuition
MBA $1,184 per unit
J.D. Per credit hour $1,560.00 http://www.lmu.edu/about/services/controller/osfs/studentaccounts/fees/2012_2013_Academic_Year/Law_School_Tuition_2012_2013.htm?
J.D. is slightly more, but an MBA is not cheap by any means this is the same school mind. A few thousand more for a law license, but you have a specialty opposed to an MBA which anyone can practice not anyone can practice law. It is cheaper to get an MBA yes, but not my much and as my article provides there are plenty of criticisms regarding an MBA.
I am only googling this in between breaks so I can't find the tuition for accounting at LMU, but I am it is a $1,000+ a credit just as a law degree or MBA is. Yea MBA is only two years and people can work while obtaining them, but people can go to law school part time work or work full time years 2 & 3 there is nothing stopping anyone from doing that.
As for one job paying 28,000 what does that prove? I am sure there are plenty of job postings for licensed lawyers offering a 100,000+ and others that are seeking licensed lawyers to work as unpaid law clerks. Some job posting doesn't prove anything there are crappy and awesome jobs in every industry and one craigslist posting in some random location is not indicative of an entire industry .
Here is SF Craigslist for lawyers http://sfbay.craigslist.org/lgl/
and business http://sfbay.craigslist.org/bus/
I guarantee you in the three days of postings in these jobs you will find awesome ones, crappy ones, and ok ones. You could do this nationwide and there will be unpaid jobs, low salary jobs, high salary jobs, etc.
Technically an MBA is a lower risk financially it is slightly less money and a two year commitment, but the market for MBA"s is certainly not any better than a lawyer. You are still out thousands of dollars and two years of your life and there is no guarantee. However, if OP wants to be a businessman he should get an MBA if he wants to be a lawyer get a J.D. There is only one way to be a lawyer and that is going to law school.
OP's LSAT is lower than most people in law school, but what does that mean? In court I have never brought up my LSAT score and when I am representing clients in front of a judge, jury, etc the last thing anybody cares about is what I scored on some standardized admissions test years ago it simply doesn't matter. I passed the bar I am a lawyer and whether I or any other licensed lawyer succeeds is up to us the LSAT gets you in the door and after day 1 of law school it means jack. In my school there was one guy who talked about how great of an LSAT score he got and that is all he talked about and he failed out. I was below the median at my school, but I finished in the top 10% of my class it means very little other than getting you in the door.
That is my two cents and you are entitled to yours I encourage anyone that really wants to be a lawyer to go to law school. If OP wants that he should attend Appalachian, but as I think both you and I agree Appalachian is not going to result in having employers knocking down your door, but neither is any other school except maybe Harvard, Yale, or Stanford. However, Harvard, Yale, Stanford also have MBA, Accounting, and other schools and the same logic applies there.
Again I am not trying to paint a rosy picture of law school it is hard, expensive, and time consuming. The system could be changed in some ways and I believe there is a push to take the bar in your 2L and then have a license for 3L to work on developing practical skills, which I am all for. Reforms can be made, but like all systems I am aware of it is far from perfect and many of your points are valid. However, just because law school is not a perfect system does not mean someone should avoid it, because whatever other profession they are seeking to enter into will have it's own problems.
« on: February 25, 2013, 05:31:29 PM »
I got it from LSAC http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/publications/2012og/aba4973.pdf
, but definitely call the school directly as that is a difference of 20,000 over one year and 60,000 over three. I am in the Bay Area, but once you pass the California Bar you are licensed in every city in California and it being such a massive state covering towns like San Diego, L.A, San Jose, San Francisco, Sacramento to name a few you will be licensed in all of them if you pass the California Bar.
No problem happy to give some advice I know there is a lot of negativity on these boards, but you have to ask yourself what kind of person spends hours on anonymous posting on the internet to complain how unfair everything is? That is not the type of person I want to hang out with and I am a big believer in accountability I choose to go to law school no gun to my head and there were flaws in the system just like everything else, but I am glad I went. There are many others who hated their experience and the reality is whether you fail or succeed will be much more dependent on you than anything TJSL or other schools do.
Remember all a law school owes you is a ticket to take the bar exam and any accredited law school will give you that opportunity. Whether you pass the bar or fail will be pretty much dependent on you and whether you find a job again will be on you. These are difficult tasks and TJSL is not going to impress anybody, but plenty of people from every ABA school nationwide do succeed however it is not easy. 100% of people on the first day of law school think they will graduate in the top 10% and they are special and will find a job at graduation no problem. 90% of people don't finish in the top 10% of the class and plenty of people struggle to find jobs. It is hard I will not sugarcoat and it is not always fair, but if being a lawyer is what you want then I encourage you to go for it, but be prepared for a challenge.
« on: February 25, 2013, 04:54:17 PM »
First law school is not that easy to get into? It is easier than medical school you need a bachelor's degree, which only about 30% of American's have and globally that number is far lower. Then you need to get basically a 145 to get into Appalachian or Cooley two of the easier to get into schools in America, but even to do that you need to be in the top half or higher of LSAT takers. You state 30,000 people did better than OP on the LSAT, but there were 130,000 test takers http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/lsats-administered.asp
therefore he did better than 100,000 people who have bachelor's degrees, which is quite good.
What I don't think most law students realize is that if you attend law school you are good at school. I played sports in college and know many people are not capable of pulling a 2.0 to any law student that seems like a joke and I got a 3.3 drinking, partying, and putting in minimal effort in college, but school simply was easy for me. It is not simply work ethic either I played basketball in College I could probably work 100x harder than every NBA player right now and not be anywhere near their level. I remember watching a documentary of Allen Iverson saying he never lifted a weight in his life yet he was an NBA All-Star somethings just come naturally to people. So getting into law school and scoring well enough to get into any ABA school is an accomplishment in my opinion. LAW SCHOOL A WASTE?
Do some people was their law school experience? Yes. There is no mandatory requirement to take the hardest courses, bust your ass to find a paying internship, etc. Plenty of people I went to law school with routinely missed class, took easy courses, and were rarely involved with anything. Yes the third year of law school was a complete waste for these people, but any educational experience is what you make of it.
During my Third year I was on a journal, I took numerous writing classes so I would have good writing samples at graduation, I participated in two mock trial competitions, and got an internship (paid) that lead to my first job out of law school.
My classmates had the same opportunities to do what I did others did not. Undergrad or any other school is no different. In college I knew plenty of people that smoked pot all day, missed class, got a 2.0, and did jack over their 4 years in college. I could have done more in college personally, but I played basketball, made friends, held several jobs, was in school politics, etc. I got a scholarship for basketball, but my stoner dorm mates had the same opportunities I had , but they never utilized them.
My point is law school is no different than any other form of school you make it a worthwhile experience or not. If you want to sit in the back of the class, take Yoga for lawyers 3L, or some other fluff thing nobody is stopping you just as nobody is stopping you from taking the difficult courses, befriending professors, participating in moot court or mock trial. The choice is yours no matter what school you attend. COST OF LAW SCHOOL
Some schools are expensive, but not all of them Florida International, CUNY, Florida, Florida, State, South Dakota, North Dakota, all offer very cheap in-state tuition. Southwestern law school has a program where you can graduate in two years and plenty of other schools if you push for it will let you graduate in two years, but again you have get it done nobody is going to hand you anything.
News Article saying an MBA is a waste of time & money. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CEUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbsnews.com%2F8301-505125_162-45040152%2Fwhy-an-mba-is-a-waste-of-time-and-money%2F&ei=6torUcfnC4rEiwLInIHYCQ&usg=AFQjCNHfUJJJyo_LSL0H-I91JLSw1gA1Mw&bvm=bv.42965579,d.cGE
A CPA who can't find a job http://www.cpanet.com/cpa_forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37159
Pharmacists can't find a job https://www.google.com/search?q=Pharmaticists+can%27t+find+a+job+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=TE7&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=Pharmacists+can%27t+find+a+job&spell=1&sa=X&ei=NNsrUajBM6e9iwK_-ICQAw&ved=0CC8QvwUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42965579,d.cGE&fp=44bd0b80c492aca7&biw=1366&bih=638
This world is difficult there is no golden ticket whether OP wants to be a lawyer, pharmacist, MBA, there will be a million things he/she could bi**h and moan about. We are very foruntate to live in America we have an abundance of opportunities and many of us myself and yourself included were fortunate enough to receive graduate degrees. Where I came from attending a public school in L.A. all anybody was a chance to go to a college any college, but many were not lucky enough to do it I was good enough at basketball to get out and made it to law school etc, but a lot of people had it easier than me, but literally billions more people around the world had it harder.
If OP is someone who is going to complain that they went to law school and were in top of their class so somebody owes them something and how unfair everything is then he/she should not go to law school any law school. If he/she is willing to bust their ass, handle rejection, and sincerely wants to be a lawyer then they should go for it whether it be Appalachian or somewhere else.
I am not trying to paint a rosy picture of law school either it is hard, it is expensive, and there are no guarantees. However, there is no guarantee elsewhere MBA school is expensive. Pharmacy school is expensive 51k for tuition http://www.pacific.edu/Admission/Graduate-Professional/Pharmacy/Pharm-DTuition-and-Fees.html
and it is three years long. I could go on and on with examples and the bottom line is no matter what profession you are in there will be people who complain how unfair it is.
To OP if you really want to be a lawyer and you think Grundy, Virginia will be a good fit I encourage you to do it. If you are not truly sure what you want to do with your life hold back it is a 3 year 100,000+ commitment and if your not ready for that do not attend law school. You know far better what you want than any anonymous internet poster on this board or others so really look deep down in yourself and ask what you want. If being a lawyer is the choice you want then go for it and feel free to personal message me with any questions you might have.
« on: February 25, 2013, 04:24:33 PM »
First off realize that anything you read on this board or other comes from anonymous internet posters who have no repercussions for being completely wrong, making things up, etc. There is no qualifications to post on this board, top law schools, or others for all you know I could be one of the greatest lawyers in the world or a bum in a public library. Bottom line taking any advice from anonymous internet posters myself included with a major grain of salt.
With that introduction I can tell you that I have never been to Thomas Jefferson Law, but I am a lawyer in California. I can tell you I have seen good and bad lawyers from every law school Thomas Jefferson included. Thomas Jefferson does have significant issues with bar passage, but having taken the California Bar I really think bar passage is far more up to the individual than the school, but TJLS numbers are significantly lower than other schools. I do not know what to make of that, but it should be of some concern as they had 33% and 52% bar passage rates in the last 2 years. Again whether you pass the bar is much more up to the individual than the school, but those are significantly lower numbers than other schools.
Now with that said there are some major Pros to TJSL. I noticed they recently reduced their tuition to 19,000 a year, which is about half the price of every other California Law School. Furthermore, TJSL is in San Diego where there are simply not many other law schools, which means less competition.
One other thing to realize about legal education is that it is all the same. Whether you attend Davis, Hastings, University of San Diego, Thomas Jefferson, California Western, etc your first year will consist of Torts, Property, Contracts, Civil Procedure. etc and you will read Supreme Court Cases. The United States Supreme Court does not spend time writing seperate opinions for different law schools and no matter what school you attend you will read Palsgraf in torts to learn proximate cause, Pennoyer v. Neff to in Civ Pro to learn about notice. So there really isn't much difference between law schools they teach you the same exact thing. You will take the bar exam and hopefully you will pass if you do you will have a law license and whether you succeed as a lawyer will be far more dependent on you than any law school name on your diploma.
Now is anyone going to be impressed by TJSL? No certainly it would be better to go to Stanford the road to succeeding as a lawyer would be easier, but plenty of people do succeed from TJSL while many others do not. It will be an uphill battle, but people have overcome a lot worse things than not going to Harvard for Law School. There were attorneys who got licensed during segregation and overcame numerous obstacles, people around the world are starving and fighting for survival every day. People that complain that they cannot get a job, because they didn't get into Stanford are the epitome of first world problems, but if you someone that expects things to be handed to you then do not attend TJSL or any law school for that matter. If your prepared to work your ass off, overcome obstacles, and get sh** done then I encourage you to go for it, but it will not be easy.
Good luck to you whatever you decide.
« on: February 24, 2013, 09:42:17 PM »
First off realize that anything you read on this board or others comes from anonymous internet posters who know nothing about you, your situation, or what is best for you. Furthermore, as an anonymous internet poster you have no idea if I am the valedictorian of Harvard or some bum in a public library with a heroin needle in my arm. I can tell you that I am a law school graduate, who passed the bar, and works as an attorney, but you have no idea if that is true or not.
From my experience I can tell you when choosing a law school I think there are 5 things any OL should consider in this order. (1) Location (2) Cost (3) Personal Feelings about the School (4) Reality of Legal Education (5) and if those factors don't point you in the right direction use U.S. News as a tiebreaker, DO NOT make it your main priority when choosing a law school. Below is some analysis of why these factors matter. LOCATION
Your school choices are all over the country Arizona, Houston, Georgia, etc remember that law school does not exist in a vacuum and you will be spending three years of the prime of your life in whatever city you attend law school in. Arizona is a desert it will be hot as hell everyday and you will leave in a college town. Florida the same humid as hell and Gainesville is a small college town. Houston is a fairly big city and your experience at these three schools will be entirely different.
Furthermore, whatever school you attend is where you will find an apartment, likely enter into a relationship, make friends, get internships etc. When you are done there is a high likelihood that is where you will remain after graduation. Florida law school does not have connections in Arizona and even if they did an Arizona firm is not going to fly out a recent grad from Florida for an interview and as a broke graduate or law student you will not have the money to fly out to Arizona for an interview and even if you did they are far more likely to hire from Arizona schools than someone from Florida. If you wanted to be in Florida and you were in Arizona the same would be true, just really understand LOCATION IS THE BIGGEST FACTOR WHEN CHOOSING YOUR SCHOOL SINCE THAT IS WHERE YOU WILL LIKELY BE SPENDING THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. COST
This is a secondary consideration and if you have scholarship money at some schools check the conditions. Often it will say something like you need to have a 3.0 to maintain your scholarship, but generally you need to be in the top 35% to have a 3.0 and in law school 100% of people think they will be in the top 35%, but you don't need to be a math major to see how that turns out.
There are also some schools, which offer in-state tuition I know Florida does and Arizona State might be another one that costs only 15,000 a year and if you think Arizona or Florida are places you could live then go for it. PERSONAL FEELINGS ABOUT THE SCHOOL
Another thing to realize is that each school has a culture to it and whether you like that culture or not is up to you. When I was a OL and a law student participating in mock trial competitions I encountered numerous schools some I liked others I hated, but just because I liked or hated one school doesn't mean you will. I can almost guarantee you and I have numerous different views and you will like or dislike a certain school based on factors unique to you. Since the law school you choose is a life altering decision I highly recommend you visit the schools and see which school fits your style. REALITY OF LEGAL EDUCATION
Another thing to understand is that legal education is exactly the same no matter what ABA school you attend. Your first year will consist of Torts, Criminal Law, Contracts, Property, and Civil Procedure. In these courses you will read Supreme Court cases in Torts you will learn proximate cause in the Palsgraff case, in Civil Procedure you will learn about notice in Pennoyer v. Neff and personal jurisdiction in International Shoe. The Supreme Court does not write separate opinions for different schools and whether you are attending Wake Forest or Arizona State you will be learning the same exact thing. U.S. News Ranking
To many OL's make life altering decisions based on this magazine, but remember that is all this is a for-profit, private, unregulated magazine, offering an opinion. U.S. News says New Mexico is the best place to live right and South Dakota will be the best place to live in 2032 http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/real-estate/articles/2009/06/08/best-places-to-live-2009http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/the-best-life/2012/08/07/here-are-the-best-places-to-livein-2032
Now I imagine you are not going to New Mexico based on what U.S. News thinks or start planning retirement in South Dakota. U.S. News has reasons for choosing these places, but I wouldn't make a life altering decision by moving to either of these places because U.S. News says so. U.S. News ranking of law school is no different they have their reasons for choosing schools and maybe if Harvard, Yale, or Stanford were on your list then consider it, but all these schools are fine and whatever their rank is means very little.
Also as to Anti's point plenty of lawyers do start out making 40-60k, but this number goes up drastically in a few years with experience. There are also plenty of people who start out making 80-100k and whether you succeed as a lawyer is going to depend a lot more on you than whatever school you attend.
Also congrats on all your acceptances I wish you success as you embark on your legal career.
« on: February 24, 2013, 04:41:04 PM »
To Blue yes most recent law graduates do not know how to file complaints or do anything complicated. However, I cannot think of any other profession that produces ready to go people right out of school. For example I am a City Attorney there are cops who have their first day, fire fighters, building inspectors, etc. Who have their first day out of whatever school/academy they came from and the cop on his first day out of the Police Academy does not know how to do a lot of things and they will not send the rookie cop in by himself to take down the biggest meth lab in town. Like every other profession it will take time for the cop to get good at his job and obtaining experience as a lawyer is no different.
I could go on would you want a doctor to perform their first real surgery on you? No, but every doctor has to go through that. Would you want the house your architect is designing to be their first home? No, but every architect has their first project. I could go on and on with examples and the bottom line is in any profession the person will have their first (experience) and probably not be very good when they start out. Even Lebron James was a rookie and didn't make the playoffs his first year, but look at him now.
Also to become a police officer is difficult, fire fighters, etc. I talk to the recruiting people in charge of those positions all the time they are inundated with resumes and applicants for one or two spots. My overall point is law is really no different than any other profession and it will be hard to start a career that is worthwhile in any profession. Therefore, if OP really wants to be a lawyer then he/she should go to law school there will be challenges and it is expensive, but if being a lawyer is what they want to do then they should go for it.
However, if you know of some profession where they are hiring like crazy, that pays exorbitant amounts of money, and isn't to stressful I am sure plenty of people on this board myself included would love to hear about it. Based on my experience that doesn't exist and whether OP goes to law school or pursues some other profession it will be difficult to start a career.
It is true that if OP expects to transfer out of Appalachian that is not a good plan since they would need to be in the top 10-20% of the class to do so and there is an 80%-90% chance that will not happen. However, people find jobs right out of law school as 55% of your class did. From my experience in the legal profession finding a job has a lot more to do with the person than the name of the law school they went to. An employer particularly a law firm doesn't want a whiner or someone who says I can't do x or y. To be a successful lawyer you have to overcome obstacles and basically get sh*t done. If you are going to spend time complaining about how hard it is to do x, y, z then you won't make much of a lawyer and probably shouldn't go into the profession.
So OP if you want to be a lawyer then go to law school. When you graduate and pass the bar do not expect anything to be handed to you it will take a lot of fighting and hard work to succeed as a lawyer, but if your up for that then enroll in law school. I wish you good luck in your legal career should you pursue that path.
« on: February 22, 2013, 04:48:57 PM »
A good place to check is lawschoolnumbers.com it is not 100 percent accurate, but at the very least you can see dates people were accepted for the past few years.
« on: February 20, 2013, 11:59:56 PM »
Looks good one other thing that is very helpful is scheduling visit and on the visit dress nice, by ready to answer questions, and just give a good impression. Treat it like a job interview and see what happens. There is no guarantee it will work and waitlists are an awkward position I was on one for a total of 8 months and they rejected me during my first week of law school officially. Pretty annoying, but I ended up loving the school I attended. I think your taking the right steps, but at some point there is only so much you can do.
« on: February 20, 2013, 11:06:49 PM »
As I stated before nobody knows better than you how you will handle moving away from home etc. Remember if you attend Syracuse you will be there for 3 years of your life. You will be stressed out as a 1L unable to make a quick trip home, you will not be able to just visit your friends, etc. Wherever you attend law school will have a major impact on your experience and if you don't like Syracuse, NY I would highly recommend you do not attend law school there.
As for employment prospects none of these schools are going to result in employers tracking you down. They are all fine, but realistically I am sure the majority of lawyers in Syracuse, NY attended Syracuse Law School. The majority of lawyers in Harrisburg attended Widener, etc. I know Drexel is basically brand new, but again I am sure the majority of graduates are in Philadelphia. The reason for this is simple the professors live in these locations and have connections locally. A professor in Syracuse, NY is not going to Philadelphia Bar Association meetings to mingle with lawyers they are in Syracuse NY. Furthermore, employers in Harrisburg or Philadelphia are not going to send people to upstate New York to interview when they have law schools in their backyard. I could go on and on, but just apply common sense location matters above all else in this decision.
If you were debating between Stanford and Widener then maybe location could take a back seat, but even then I would encourage you to think about it, but these are all mediocre schools. Nothing wrong with them they will give a license to practice law and it will be up to you to succeed as a lawyer. So many 0L's and law students think the name of their school means so much, but realistically being a lawyer is much more art than science. You will need to persuade people and get a result. There are numerous ways to get the result you want and if you are good at getting sh** done you will be a good lawyer no matter what school you attend. The name of the school on your diploma won't really make that big of a difference.
If you don't believe me then go into a courthouse and watch some hearings. You have a constitutional right to do so and watch the attorneys go. Some will be amazing, others ok, while others will be terrible. You will never hear a law school name be mentioned in court either there will be millions of dollars on the line, someone possibly going to prison, or some serious sh** going down. Some lawyers will persuade you and others you will think are idiots that is it.
One other thing really look at the scholarship offers and conditions as I suggested before. I also encourage you to negotiate for more money or better scholarship conditions. Even if you don't get anything you have nothing to lose the law schools want you to enroll and you are in a everything to gain nothing to lose situation. It will also be a good exercise in negotiating and seeing your ability to get sh** done, which is the skill you will need to be a lawyer.
Alright enough out of me, but being someone who has never met you and knows nothing about you other than a few posts on the internet if you want to take my advice on a life altering decision I would rule Syracuse out, but I am some guy on the internet so take my advice or anyone else on this board or others with a grain of salt.
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