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Messages - livinglegend

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231
Law School Admissions / Re: What are my chances?
« on: January 23, 2013, 08:49:19 PM »
Maintain is correct you can look on lawschoolnumbers.com to see how much URM status helped individuals at certain schools. I would predict Cal Western and Southwestern would come through the rest a crapshoot.

From the schools you listed I speculate you are from California and you may want to simply apply to schools there. If your goal is to work as a lawyer in California then attending school in Albany or Quinnipac will not be a good decision.

As Maintain said location will matter more than anything in your decision. There are 20 or so ABA schools in California and plenty of people from Harvard, Yale, NYU, Columbia, and other elite schools want to work in California. If you come from a decent school like Albany or Quinnipac with no connections in California you probably won't be in a good situation. However, if you want to work in Albany then Albany law school is probably the best school you could go to and if you want to be in Connecticut then Quinnipac would be one of the best schools you could attend.

232
Law School Admissions / Re: What are your thoughts?
« on: January 22, 2013, 09:54:57 PM »
Congrats on your acceptance very few people actually end up showing up for the LSAT and going through the application process and getting admitted. Although you might read a bunch of things saying otherwise on the internet getting into an ABA law school is an accomplishment. I am a licensed employer lawyer that did not go to a T14 school and believe it or not 90% of lawyers did not go to top 10 schools.

With that said before I give any advice realize that anything you read from anonymous internet posters on this board or others my post included should be taken with a grain of salt. Some of the advice might be helpful, but nobody posting anonymous on the internet knows anything about you, your situation, or what is best for you. Furthermore, there is no license required to post on this board or others for all you know I could have been valedictorian at Harvard law or be some bum in a public library shooting up heroin so take anything you get from sources such as this with a major grain of salt.

In regards to choosing a law school I have posted some factors I think any 0L should consider and they are in this order (1) Location (2) Cost (3) personal feelings about the school (4) Reality of Legal Education (5) Lastly use the rankings member it is nothing more than an for profit unregulated magazine offering an opinion you might want to use it, but don't make a life altering decisoin based on it.

I will break down the factors quickly.

1) Location
This is the most important thing in my opinion wherever you attend school is where you will spend 3 years of your life and more than likely where you will end up living at graduation. Law school is a life altering event and during your time you will make friends, enter a romantic relationship or maintain a current one, get an apartment, a routine etc and at a minimum you will be there for 3 years. Furthermore, all your internships will likely be in the area because 9 months out of the year you will need to be in the location school is. 

Also realize that law school does not exist in a Vaccuum I know nothing about you personally, but if you are a Conservative Mormon I would not recommend attending law school in San Francisco and if your a gay rights activist don't attend South Texas. There are also concerns of weather, culture, and so forth. If you are a person that loves living in a big city go to law school in a big city if you want the college vibe then attend a school in a college town. Although law school is time consuming the outside world still exists so consider where you want to live.

2) Cost
Scholarships are great and getting out with as little debt is ideal. However, pay close attention to any conditions you see on scholarship oftentimes it will be something along the lines of maintaining a 3.0 or being in the top 35% of the class. Now as a 0L I am sure you assume you will be in the top 35% of the class especially at Tier 3/4 school. However, that is not the case 100% of people at any ABA school are smart, hard-working, and motivated and if 100% of people think they will be in the top 35% you don't need to be a  math major to see what happens.

That same logic applies to the 3.0 schools have stringent curves and generally only 35% of the class can get a 3.0 so pay extremly close attention to any conditions applied to your scholarships. Also look at the actual cost of tuition I know there are schools like FIU, CUNY, South Dakota, North Dakota to name a few that offer in-state tuition. You will only pay 12-15k per year and most schools charge 40k per year. So even if you got a 50% scholarship at some school that was 40k per year you would still be paying 20k opposed to 12-15k and there is a strong possiblity you will lose the schoalrship for years 2 and 3 so pay attention to all of that.

3) Personal Feelings About the School
When I was a OL I was accepted to numerous schools and in law school I participated in a lot of mock trial competitions. As a result of this I saw quite a few schools and learned that each had a culture and feel to it. There were some I liked and others I didn't, but what I liked you may hate and vice versa. I highly recommend you visit any school your serious about attending talk to professors, students, admins etc and see how they make you feel. I definetly left with a sour taste in my mouth at some schools and feeling really positive about others, but again that is my own personal feeling and there is a strong likelihood you and I don't have the exact same likes/dislikes. Remember nobody knows what is best for your better than yourself.

4) Reality of Legal Education
One thing I think few law students realize is that at any ABA school the education is almost identical. Your first year will consist of Torts, Property, Contracts, Civil Procedure, Criminal Law and you may have Criminal Procedure & Con Law in year 2 or those might be in year 1, but you will have all those courses. In these classes you will read Supreme Court cases Pennoyer in Civ Pro, Palsgraff in Torts etc. Believe it or not the Supreme Court does not write separate opinions for different schools the law is literally the same and once your 3 years is up at whatever law school you attend you will pay a company like BarBri or Kaplan to help you pass the bar and so will the kids at Harvard.

There are some schools that offer a few extra courses and if you have a particular area of interest you may want to check the course schedule, but even if that is the case most of your law school days will be spent studying the core subjects.

5) U.S. News
So many 0L's make life altering decisions based on this magazine, but remember that is all it is a magazine. U.S. News ranks more than law schools and they claim Alberqueu New Mexico is the best place to live and South Dakota will be the best place to live in 2032 . Not making this up either http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/real-estate/articles/2009/06/08/best-places-to-live-2009  and http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/the-best-life/2012/08/07/here-are-the-best-places-to-livein-2032 I imagine your not packing your bags to move to New Mexico right now or moving to South Dakota in 2032 because U.S. News said so. It makes me slightly more interested in these places, but I am certainly not going to make a life altering decision based like move to these areas because they said so. I encourage you to apply the same logic to law school use them as a basis, but don't make the decision of whether or not to go to law school because U.S. News says X school is 110th.

I can tell you these rankings change drastically year to year and outside of the top schools nobody knows or cares what certain schools are ranked. However, if you are expecting a 300,000 a year job right out of law school then go for Harvard or bust. However, if you really want to be a lawyer any ABA school will do.

Well that is it sorry for any typos I am rushing through this post hopefully some of that info is helpful and I wish you good luck if you decide to attend law school.


233
Law School Admissions / Re: School suspension
« on: January 21, 2013, 08:41:37 PM »
I would agree with Groundhoug there I believe suspended would imply some sort of judicial action by the school. However, to be 100% sure contact the schools they know far better than anonymous internet posters such as myself or groundhog. I would bet a substantial amount of money that every school would not consider it a suspension, but better to ask the people making the decisions all anyone on this forum can do is speculate.

In the end when in doubt disclose that is the best advice, but here I think it is more appropriate to call the admissions offices directly and get clarification on the question. Good luck

234
Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Decisions-Decisions...<grumble>
« on: January 21, 2013, 08:37:03 PM »
I think a lot of that advice is correct, but for now I woudl really focus on getting your LSAT Score and GPA in order. I am not sure how stringent Memphis is in admissions, but getting a 165-170 on the LSAT is not going to be a cakewalk. I would really focus on getting your LSAT Score and GPA to know what your options really are. If your numbers get you into Memphis then the above posters are right. Remember U.S. News is nothing more than a for-profit unregulated magazine offering an opinion.  I am a lawyer in California and I have absolutely no idea what Memphis is ranked furthermore I don't care to know there are a few schools that catch your attention i.e. Harvard, Stanford, Yale, but if a resume from Memphis or Michigan State or Florida International etc etc I wouldn't care I would look at the class rank, writing sample, work experience etc.

One other thing to realize is that education at every ABA school is essentially the same. Your first year will consist of Torts, Civil Procedure, Property, Contracts, and Criminal Law. Or they may give you Con Law and Criminal Procedure in your first year opposed to Criminal Law, but you will end up taking all those courses along with Evidence, Corporations, and Wills & Trusts. In those courses you will read Supreme Court Cases and the Supreme Court does not write separate opinions for Tier 1 v. Tier 3 law schools. Bottom line you learn the same thing and I wouldn't recommend moving cross country or paying 50-100k more to attend some school that is slightly better according to a magazine. 

Remember U.S. News ranks more than just law schools they also think New Mexico is the best place to live and South Dakota will be the best in 2032 (not making this up) here are the links http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/the-best-life/2012/08/07/here-are-the-best-places-to-livein-2032 and http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/real-estate/articles/2009/06/08/best-places-to-live-2009 . The U.S. News opinion makes me think New Mexico might be more interesting than I thought, but I am not packing my bags to move there because U.S. News said so. I highly recommend applying the same logic to selecting a law school. Good luck on the LSAT and law school in general.

235
@Jack I would say I put in 50 if you include in class-time no more no less and you are correct you can certainly overstudy. Furthermore, I don't know if the hours count so much as your effiency in studying I am sure plenty of people set in a library for 60 hours, but if your on facebook the whole time in a library it is going to improve your performance.

So that is something I think any law student should realize the amount of time you put into studying does not matter it is the quality of your study habits. If you are organized, outline properly, etc you can really shorten the amount of time you spend studying and do all the extracurricular things jack mentioned in the prior post. I remember in 1L many people going hours upon hours, but when the final comes all that matters is your performance not the amount of time you spent studying.

236
Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Advice on Deciding Where to Attend
« on: January 19, 2013, 03:06:13 PM »
I have posted on this forum many times regarding this topic and one thing to remember above all else is everyone posting on this form or others myself included is nothing more than anonyomous internet poster that knows nothing about you, your situation, or what is best for you. With that said I have gone through law school so I can offer my experience and what I think is important for anyone in your position to consider, but again I am just some guy posting on the internet so take my advice with a grain of salt.

You have already recieved some solid advice above, but I am going to add onto it. I think for any 0L these factors in this order should be considered when choosing a law school. (1) Location (2) Cost (3) Personal Feelings about the school (4) Reality of Legal Education (Speciality Programs) (5) and as a final factor the least important in my opinion U.S. News I think many 0L's mistakenly put this at the top of the list when it should be at the bottom.

Here is some analysis regarding the factors I mentioned.

(1) Location
It looks like your options right now are the Midwest and Florida, which are two different places entirely as I imagine you know. Whereever you end up going to school in all likelihood is where you will end up living. Furthermore, I noticed you have a girlfriend living near SLU I don't know how serious that is or not, but I would beat a significant amount of money that if you attend law school in a different city than her that relationship is ending. If you attend FIU while she is in St. Louis you will not see eachother you will be extremly busy and broke throughout law school, which is not a good combination for a long distance relationship.

Aside from that Miami is going to have far different weather & culture than Michigan State. I personally went to law school in a place that has pretty cloudly weather and it made studying a lot easier. Studying the Rule Against Perpetuities when it is 90 degrees and a beach with a bunch of beautiful girls on it would have made me drop the book and likely fail out. I know myself and how I would have handled a town like Miami or a school like Pepperdine in L.A. it would have ended with me rarely crackign a book. So that was a factor for me, but you might be entirely different.

Aside from that Michigan State (East Lansign) is a lot different than Miami as I am sure you are aware and law school does not exist in a vaccuum. There is not a whole hell of a lot to do in East Lansing if your not into the Frat Party, College Football, College Basketball, etc scene. Again something to consider I went to law school in a pretty metropolitan area which was good for some extra activities and making connections during law school.

Furthermore, three years is a long time you will get an apartment, make friends, etc and that will be difficult. Also whatever school you attend will have connections locally and you will only be able to intern at places near the school during the academic year. If you want to work for the Miami D.A. you cannot do that from August until May when if your in Michigan. If you wan to work for the Lansing D.A. you can't do that if your in Miami. So I really cannot stress the importance of location.

(2) Cost
This is a huge factor and it looks like you are considering it. There are a few schools like FIU that offer in-state tuition which is awesome. CUNY, North Dakota, Wyoming, South Dakota, and a few others offer tuition which is about 10-15k per year, which is very reasonable for an ABA education. Many schools even with a half-tuition schoalrship will be more expensive than those schools. Many people see a 25,000 scholarship and think damn that is amazing, but if the law school is 50k per year you are still paying 25k per year while FIU or one of the other state schools is 10-15k per year over 3 years that adds up to 30k of savings.

You also seem aware of the scholarship conditions, which many people don't understand. These are of the utmost importance 100% of incoming 1L's are certain they will be in the top 10% of the class and maintain their scholarship, but 90% of people can't be in the top 10%. Once that is not achieved you lose your scholarship for years 2 & 3 then your paying 50k a year opposed to the guaranteed 15k per year at FIU or the other state schools I mentioned.

3) Personal Feelings About the School

Every school has a culture to it when I was a 0L I visited multiple schools and also did mock trial competitions so I interacted with even more. Many of the schools had a fell to them and there were some schools I loved others I hated. However, just because I didn't like one school doesn't mean you won't like it either. My reasoning was very subjective as I mentioned Pepperdie is a beautiful campus and it seemed great, but it was a little religious or that was my impression and I coudln't hanlde the beach, beautiful weather, etc while studying Torts. That might sound ideal for you and that is your personal opinion. So visit these schools interact with professors, talk to students, etc. At the end see what feels right for you remember this is a 3 year 100k commitment make sure it fits your style because nobody knows what is better for you than yourself.

4) Reality of Legal Education

In reality every ABA school teaches you the same exact thing. Your first year will consist of Torts, Contracts, Property, Civil Procedure, Criminal Law, and likely Con Law in 1L. They might mix in Criminal Procedure or Con Law in 2L, but you will take those courses. What you will do is read Supreme Court Cases like Pennoyer v. Neff in Civ Pro, Palsgraff in Torts, etc. These cases are exactly the same whether you read them in Michigan or Miami. Some professors are more engaging than others, but at every school you will have good and bad ones.

At the end of your three years you will pay BarBri or Kaplan to help you study for the bar and once you pass that with an ABA law degree you are a licensed lawyer and can take the bar in any other state.

However, if there is a speciality your are interested in which very few 0L's seriously are then you might want to look at a school's course schedule and again consider location. For example if you want to work for the  Miami Dolphins then go to law school in Miami. Or if you want to do entertainment law go to law school in L.A., but if you want to help farmers patent corn or something then go to Nebraska. Just apply common sense there and also look to see if they offer what your interested in. Even if htey do specialities are not that big of a factor, because in reality you will take Evidence, Wills & Trusts, Coroprations, a writing course, trial advoacy, LRW to round out the rest of your 2L & 3L to prepare for the bar. You might get between 3-5 courses that will help focus on a specific area, but they will only give you an overview.

(5) U.S. News
If after all those factors are considered you can't decide then look to the rankings as a tiebreaker, but remember it is nothing more than a for-profit magazine offering an opinion. U.S. News has also ranked New Mexico the best state to live, but I don't see you applying to University of New Mexico to live there. I certainly would not make a life altering decision such as moving to Alberque because some magainze said to so use the same logic when deciding where to attend. Don't go to a school because it was ranked 84th opposed to 99th nobody cares. If you were deciding between Harvard and FIU then the rankings might be the number one factor and you should attend Harvard, but nobody cares about whatever difference exists between Depaul and FIU the factors above will be much more important.

Conclusion:
In the end I am nothing more than an anonymous internet poster that knows nothing about you, your situation, or what is best for you. For all you know I am a bum in a public library strung out on H rambling on the internet with all the typos I have made rushing through this post you might be right : ) , but I can't stress enough consider location and your personal feelings when making this life altering decision. Good luck.

237


What are you talking about?

Anybody with reasonable focus and intelligence can reach 95% of their potential in law school by dedicated 50 hours (real hours) a week.   After my first semester, I probably spent about 35 hours a week for 12 weeks and then 80 hours a week for 3 weeks.  A lot of that time was spent for law review, moot court, and writing papers.
I was almost always over-prepared for exams. 

Really, every hour over about 50 per week will be next to useless.  It would be much better to spend that extra time to work out, watch movies, take your spouse on dates, or have sex.

As far that goes I don't know if that is true just because you did it one way does not mean it is the same for everyone. I guarantee you I could do everything Lebron James does and I will not be half the basketball player he is. Some people are just naturally better at understanding the law and I think that is what the LSAT does. A person with a 142 LSAT score is probably going to have to bust their ass 10x as hard as someone who got a 175 to pass the bar.

For some people RAP, negligence, IRAC jsut clicks others it does not. So I think the poster you responded you made a good point it will be hard partiuclalry if you go to a CBA school to succeed. So for anyone considering law school if you got a 141 on the LSAT it means you probably don't understand the nuances or handle the pressure of a test that well. Those are things you will need to do in law school and you will need to work harder to succeed than someone that gets it.


238
Law School Admissions / Re: Fordham asks for "additional law schools"?
« on: January 18, 2013, 10:32:55 PM »
I personally law schools look as in depth as people suspect. They will look at your numbers, letters of rec, resume, personal statement, etc and realistically they are unlikely to review that in to much depth. The numbers determine law school admissions a few items on your application really won't make that big of a difference. Remember these people are reviewing thousands of applicants and realistically most of them look the same everyone graduated from college with good grades, showed up to the LSAT, got a professor or boss to write a letter, then some personal statement explaining what drew them to law school. After looking at thousands of those that essentially look the same they just go with the numbers.

As the above posters said that is a common question to ask, but I don't know how much of a difference it will make in your applications.

239
Western State College of Law / Re: oL at Western State
« on: January 18, 2013, 10:28:16 PM »
I know nothing about Western State as I said before or their grading system. As for the bar stats the February results are not as accurate for schools since those are generally repeaters, but the point is taken their curriculum improves bar passage. I couldn't imagine a school wanting students to fail out they are paying exorbiant amounts of money and if a professor truly believes they could pass the bar I imagine they would not force them out, but if that is the system that is the system. I know at my school everyone said the bottom 10% failed out, but that wasn't true it was just a rumor.

However, I never set foot on the Western State campus and if they in fact are forcing paying students that could pass the bar out of school then it is a stupid system.

240
Western State College of Law / Re: oL at Western State
« on: January 18, 2013, 12:15:19 AM »
I really doubt Western State or any other school is doing anything to force students out. Remember all law schools are businesses first and foremost they want money, but I imagine these foundation points relate to bar performance and if you spend 100,000 and years of your life to get a J.D. and can't pass the bar that is tough.

I had a few friends in a law school that dominated mock trials, were great people, but never passed the bar. I imagine they woudl be great lawyers, but without passing the bar it all goes to waste. Western State does take in a lot of people that aren't great standardized takers and if it appears they can't handle these foundational classes they probably won't be able to pass the bar and the right thing to do is let someone go opposed to continuing to take their money when it seems quite likely they will be unsuccessful.

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