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Messages - livinglegend

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I think there are many OL's and I always encourage anyone on this board or others to not take what they read from anonymous internet posters like ourselves seriously as we can write anything we want.

With that said I think plenty of people are happy with law school and plenty are miserable. I believe Maintain hit the nail on the head when he said that law students have unrealistic expectations. First if your goal is to work in Big Law then go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, or bust and even then there is no guarantee it will happen. I will say that I went to a mediocre law school, but had realistic expectations. I got a large scholarship to keep my debt low, worked in government positions during law school, and got a job as a City Attorney after passing the bar. I love my job as a lawyer, but I am not ever going to be driving a Ferrari or own a beach house in Malibu. I do get to bust crack houses, be in the paper, and do exciting stuff that I enjoy and I am very glad to have attended law school, but I was realistic with my expectations.

OP also makes a great point that everyone in law school is smart and do not count on being in the top 10% of your class. 100% of people cannot be in the top 10%, but I know everyone on my first day of law school thought they would be in the top 10%, but you don't need to be math major to see how that works out. I think you can apply the same logic to big law only about 5% of lawyers work in Big Law as OP does and therefore if as a OL it is your job to work in big law there is a 95% chance it won't happen. However, if you really want to be a lawyer and have some cause you believe in that law school can be a great career, but one thing law is NOT is an easy way to get rich. If money is your main goal law school is not a good choice.

Law School Admissions / Re: Law school projections?
« on: March 09, 2013, 10:12:09 PM »
To the OP I highly recommend taking the LSAT and getting an official score before considering law schools. I cannot tell you how many people I know who get 170 on their practice LSAT's, but somehow the test never gets taken. Whatever you do on the practice doesn't really mean anything I hope you get a 170 hell a 180, but the odds of that happening are low.

Take the LSAT get a score and see what your options realistically are. Right now you are putting the cart in front of the horse so take the LSAT get a score and know what your options are. Good luck on the LSAT.

As for your work experience that means very little it doesn't hurt, but law school admissions is a numbers game first and foremost. Maybe if you had done something like been a professional athlete, a Navy Seal, or something else that would get you in the headlines it might matter, but almost every OL has worked in a law firm in some capacity. It doesn't hurt obviously, but Stanford is not going to go oh my goodness look at this applicant 4 years at a law firm we have to let him in. There are thousands upon thousands of applicants it sounds like you are doing the right things, but your numbers will be what gets you into law school.


First thing to understand when making the life altering decision of whether to attend law school and where to attend it is that everything you read from anonymous internet posters on this board or others including my post should be taken with a major grain of salt. Nobody knows your situation or what is best for you and what law school you choose is a highly personal decision. With that said I will offer the following advice when choosing a law school these are the factors you should consider (1) Location (2) Cost (3) Personal Feeling About the school (4) Understanding the reality of legal education (5) if all else fails use U.S. News ranking. I will analyze these factors below.

When choosing a law school particularly in the vastly different areas you are considering this is very important. Law school does not exist in a vacuum and you are going to live in the City you attend law school for three years and you will likely end up taking the bar in the state you attend law school. As I hope you are aware there is a vast difference between South Bend, Indiana and Boston for example. If you want to live in small college town and enjoy Football then ND could be for you. However, if you are a city person then Boston might be a better fit. Remember law school will be three years of your life and you are going to get an apartment, make friends, etc. Although law school is difficult you will have time to live life and your experience will be vastly different in South Bend Indiana or Boston.

On top of that you need to consider where you want to end up after graduation. If you attend law school in Notre Dame you will get internships in the Midwest not the East Coast. There are 6 or 7 law schools in Boston so employers there will have no reason to recruit outside of the area. Same with UCONN for example if you want to be in Connecticut then Quinnipac and Connecticut will be in the best position to get you a job in Connecticut.

UConn Law gives me free ride.
W&L gives me 30K per year
Emory: 20K,
Notre Dame: 15K,
BC 20K.

Those scholarships are great, but one thing to really look into is the conditions of these scholarships. Often they will say something along the lines of you need to maintain a 3.0 or be in the 25% of the class etc.  To have gotten these scholarships you obviously got a 3.0 in undergrad with ease, but law school is much different based on the curve and the intelligence and work ethic of those in law school. First off to get a 3.0 at most schools you need to be in the top 35% of the class. I know you believe that you will of course be in the top 35%, but 100% of people on the first day of law school are convinced they are going to be in the top of the class, but you don't have to be a math major to see how that works.

If it is a 3.0 requirement there is a 65% chance you will lose your scholarship nothing against you personally, but everyone in law school is smart, hard working, and motivated and there is a good chance you will lose the scholarship. Here is a NY times article explaining how this system works


3) Personal Feelings about the School
Aside from location and cost each school has a culture to it. When I was a OL and in mock trial competitions I interacted with a number of different schools some I liked others I didn't. However, that is my personal feeling I have visited Notre Dame and love the tradition there and the whole University, but that is just me. You might hate sports etc and be much more into what W & L has to offer. It is a highly personal decision and I highly recommend visiting the school to get a vibe from the school and see if it fits your personality it is a 3 year commitment and if you don't like the professors, students, admins you meet during a visit you won't like the school.

4. Reality of Legal Education
An important thing to realize is that at every ABA school the education is the same. Your first year will consist of Torts, Contracts, Con Law, Criminal Law, Criminal Procedure, and Property.  In these courses you will read Supreme Court Cases that are exactly the same no matter where you read them. In Torts you will read the Palsgraf case to understand Proximate Cause, in Hadley v. Baxendale you will learn contract remedies, Criminal Law you will learns mens rea and the elements for burglary, etc. It is all the same no matter where you learn it.

5. U.S. News
If after you analyze the factors above and you still cannot make a decision then use this as a guide, but realize this is nothing more than a for-profit unregulated magazine offering an opinion and should not be the basis of a life altering decision.

Please take my advice and other advice you read on anonymous internet poster boards with a grain of salt. I highly recommend when making a 3 year, 100,000 dollar commitment, that will determine the future of your career that you meet with people from these schools and visit the schools personally. I have been to Notre Dame for a few days, but have never even set foot on the campus of the other schools or even been to the Boston, Georgia, or Connecticut so I have no understanding of the legal markets there so get information directly from the source and if you want use the factors I listed above in your decision.

Good luck in your legal career.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: March 04, 2013, 11:17:18 PM »
You win I am going to live and enjoy life continue ranting anonymously on the internet I really don't care that much. I really can't believe I spent this much time arguing frivolous stats with some random anonymous Internet poster.
To the OP remember take everything you read on here with a grain of salt. This is a life altering decision so opposed to listening to people who have never been to the school get first hand knowledge from people with direct experience. However, I am hopeful you had enough common sense to stop paying attention to all the ranting on this thread days  ago.

Anti if the job market is really as bad as you say I would spend a lot more time studying to get some kick ass grades opposed to ranting on here as much as you do. Good luck finding a job and passing the bar you will need it.

OP visit the school yourself, talk to alumni, and get those who have direct experience with it. There are plenty of successful graduates from this school and plenty of people who struggled. The statistics do not mean a whole to since any educational opportunity has a lot more to do with the individual than the school, but do not take any anonymous internet posters advice to seriously any on this board or others is nothing more than that and Michael Scott explains why that is a bad idea.

Visit the school, talk to people with direct experience, etc whether you attend or not is a life altering decision. I realize looking at stuff on the internet is easy to do, but the information is often highly inaccurate and skewed. Mainly because for all you know myself or Anti could be homeless guys in a public library and just read the comments under any Yahoo News story and see how retarded they become anonymous internet poster advice is just not very good before making a 3 year 100,000 commitment visit the school and get information from people with direct experience in the local legal market.

American could be a great choice for you or a terrible one, but you need to do some real investigation before making such a big commitment.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: March 02, 2013, 05:58:33 PM »
@Jack I know February statistics are inaccurate, but it is more of a dig at Anti to show that stats can often be misleading. I mean using February Bar Statistics an a non-ABA approved law school Santa Barbara had a better bar passage rate than University of Michigan. and they had the same amount of test takers 15. I could find any statistic to support my argument I wanted as could you or Anit and it will be an endless cycle.

Santa Barbara College of law had 15 takers 13 passed (there is the website and it is not even ABA approved.

University of Michigan allegedly one of the top law schools in the world had 15 takers and 12 passed. As a result Santa Barbara must be a better school because statistics don't lie. However, as Jack and I know having taking the bar exam the July test is the real indicator, but in the bar exam administered in February 2012 Santa Barbara did better than Michigan that is a statistic.

Georgetown another top law school only has a 62% rate and 13% are school funded so only 49% of Georgetown grads are actually working in the legal field.

However, I am sure within 5 years most people from Georgetown who stick to it to fine.

Anti why as a law student you don't know what the real world is and whatever stats LST shows regarding a school do not guarantee you a job or even that you will pass the bar. (Unless you attend Marquette or Wisconsin, which grant you automatic admission. On the bar exam you will not be able to say I went to X school so let me pass and when your applying to jobs you won't be able to say my school had x employment rate so you must higher me. Soon enough you will be in the real world and see these statistics mean very little.

Message to the OP
I am sure your aware that TJSL is not a world renowned school and the low bar passage rate is something to consider. However, this is your personal life decision visit the school and talk to alumni and those actually working in the San Diego Legal Market. Meet people face to face to judge their credibility I am in California, but in the Bay Area and I haven't been to San Diego since I was in high school I have no knowledge of what the legal market is like there or what TJSL's reputation is in San Diego.  People who actually live there, work there, and particularly those that attended TJSL will give you insight.

The random internet banter of three anonymous internet posters really shouldn't influence your decision that much whether you attend TJSL will be a life altering decision and you should get information from sources with direct experience. I know on the internet information is easily accessible, but it is often highly inaccurate or doesn't paint a full picture. Honestly, for all I know TJSL really is a terrible school I have never been there and only know a handful of lawyers from there and I don't know any of them that well. The few I have interacted with were fine enough attorneys and people, but it is a small sample size.

Bottom line just really do not make a life altering decision based on anonymous internet posters it is a terrible idea. Visit the school and see it for yourself it may be a great fit or you will know instantly it is not for you.  Good luck whatever you decide.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: March 02, 2013, 03:05:36 PM »
If law school is so awful then why don't you take your own advice and get out? It truly sounds like you hate the system and nobody is forcing you to attend law school. If you are this upset with law school your going to hate being a lawyer even more and be miserable. Honestly, I would drop out tommorow if I was in your situation it sounds like your miserable. Your the classic example of someone that shouldn't be there so leave and move onto something you enjoy.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: March 02, 2013, 10:15:45 AM »
To the OP as you are likely seeing this conversation has now spun completely off course and this proves why basing a life altering decision based on information from anonymous internet poster board is a bad idea. I just love showing this Michael Scott Video to reiterate my point regarding this .

I don't have a financial interest in any law school, but I could be lying and be the Dean of TJSL posting on the internet to encourage you to attend or I could be some bum in a library. What I really am if you want to believe it is a guy who went to law school and was terrified by posters such as Anti09 when I was a OL. However, having gone through law school I realized that listening to people who have never set foot in a law school classroom and for some reason spends hours a day posting about the pitfalls of law school on the internet probably are not the best source of information. I am also not a good source because I have never met you and know nothing about your situation, what you want, or what is best for you.

Jack24 who posts on this site and I can tell from his writing actually attended law school makes some valid points regarding the economics of law school. I agree with most of that analysis and if you are going to law school to make money and nothing else I would not recommend TJSL or law school in general. However, if you really want to be a D.A., Public Defender, City Attorney, or have some cause you really believe in then TJSL can work out for you, but you know what your personal goals are and perhaps those who personally know you can offer insight as well.

I will offer my own experience to explain the above paragraph in a little more detail. When I was in undergrad I worked for a clinical psychologist who was making a ton of money and loved me. He wanted to put me through psychiatry school and have me partner up with him and I would have a lot more money than I do right now. I really like my old boss and still keep in contact with him, but being a psychologist and listening to rich white people complain about how they didn't feel enough love as a child would have driven me crazy. There are numerous people that love that profession, but it is just not for me. Economically it was not the BEST decision, but I wanted to be a lawyer and I love going to court, understanding Supreme Court Decisions, knowing the law etc. It is the profession for me I go into work everyday excited to show up because being a lawyer is what I wanted to do, but I make far less than the psychologist does and paid more money for tuition than psychiatry school, but to me personally I am happy with the decision.

If you go to TJSL and pass the bar you can probably find work as a lawyer, but it will take time and it will not be much money when you start out. For all three years of law school you will be stressed about finding a job and incurring substantial debt. Then you will take the bar exam with those stressors and it will be a terrible summer and even worse 4 month waiting period. If you pass you will then be a licensed lawyer, but it will then be up to you to make a career with that law license and the money is not great for the majority of lawyers, but it can be a very rewarding career for the right person.

Take everything you read from anonymous internet posters with a major grain of salt.  Next visit the school, talk to current students, and e-mail alumni these are people who can meet and assess their credibility.

Also when making the life altering decision of whether to attend law school or not look inside yourself and ask what is it about law school that appeals to you. If it is because you want to get rich DO NOT go to law school financially there are better career paths. If you really have a burning desire to practice law then I encourage you to pursue the path I knew law school was for me and I am very happy with it, but I know plenty of depressed attorneys as well and I believe many of them are that way because they expected to get rich from the legal profession and if money is your #1 priority it is probably not the profession for you. Good luck whatever you decide.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Too Many Good Choices
« on: March 02, 2013, 03:12:26 AM »
Certainly I was fortunate and in many of your other posts I agree with you that from a pure economic standpoint law school is not a good investment. I think many people attend law school thinking it is an easy way to get rich, but if money is the most important thing to a OL I would dissuade them from law school. Despite having never met you I think you would have preferred being an economist or MBA based on your posts and economic analysis of the situation.

However, there are many people who have some cause they believe in and want to be lawyers or just care more about going to court and being licensed to practice law. To those people I think law school can be a wonderful experience as it was for me, but I know many people at my school thought law school was a quick way to get rich and based solely on the financial aspect I don't think law school is a great investment. However, my belief is that there is a lot more to life than a few thousand more dollars in your bank account. For example had I not attended law school I might very well be making more money working for this clinical psychologist I worked for during undergrad who wanted to put me through graduate school and have me be a partner in his practice. I guarantee had I done that my bank account would have been bigger than it is now he had a money making machine, but I would have been bored out of my mind listening to rich white people  complain about how they don't feel loved. There are plenty of people that would love doing that it is just not me.

However, as a lawyer you have the ability to represent clients, go to court, and get judgements to resolve issues,  which you cannot do unless you go to law school. I love going to work everyday it is an exciting challenge, but if money was the number 1 or very high priority to me law school would not have been a good choice.

So again that goes to my overall point that each person's situation is unique. If you look purely at statistics and costs law school is not a great financial decision, but it can be a very rewarding career for the right person, but to anyone who thinks law school is a quick way to get rich do not go. If you really have some cause you want to fight for or find the idea of litigation exciting then it may be a good career choice.

Transferring / Re: Admitted to Appalachian but I want to go to Uconn
« on: March 02, 2013, 02:59:39 AM »
Glad to hear you actually visited the campus and made a decision based on real facts. More importantly glad you liked the Michael Scott Video. I imagine Grundy is a unique place to say the least and certainly not for everyone. From your prior posts I gather your from NY and going from there to Grundy would be a major change and if your not up for it do not attend law school there.

I hope that visit showed you the importance of location and how important you personally feel about the school is. Even if it were a top 50 school according to U.S. News I imagine with your personal preferences you would not want to live in a town that small without cell phone service. There are plenty of people out there who would love to study law in an isolated environment like that so hopefully someone who wants to attend Appalachian gets your scholarship money.

If you still want to attend law school I think you are much better off taking the LSAT and trying to get into a school that fits your situation better and not attending school in a town you perceived to be a horror flick hoping you end up in the top 10% of the class. Good luck whatever career path you pursue.

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