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Messages - livinglegend
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« on: March 09, 2013, 11:39:46 PM »
First thing to understand when making the life altering decision of whether to attend law school and where to attend it is that everything you read from anonymous internet posters on this board or others including my post should be taken with a major grain of salt. Nobody knows your situation or what is best for you and what law school you choose is a highly personal decision. With that said I will offer the following advice when choosing a law school these are the factors you should consider (1) Location (2) Cost (3) Personal Feeling About the school (4) Understanding the reality of legal education (5) if all else fails use U.S. News ranking. I will analyze these factors below. Location
When choosing a law school particularly in the vastly different areas you are considering this is very important. Law school does not exist in a vacuum and you are going to live in the City you attend law school for three years and you will likely end up taking the bar in the state you attend law school. As I hope you are aware there is a vast difference between South Bend, Indiana and Boston for example. If you want to live in small college town and enjoy Football then ND could be for you. However, if you are a city person then Boston might be a better fit. Remember law school will be three years of your life and you are going to get an apartment, make friends, etc. Although law school is difficult you will have time to live life and your experience will be vastly different in South Bend Indiana or Boston.
On top of that you need to consider where you want to end up after graduation. If you attend law school in Notre Dame you will get internships in the Midwest not the East Coast. There are 6 or 7 law schools in Boston so employers there will have no reason to recruit outside of the area. Same with UCONN for example if you want to be in Connecticut then Quinnipac and Connecticut will be in the best position to get you a job in Connecticut. 2. COST
UConn Law gives me free ride.
W&L gives me 30K per year
Notre Dame: 15K,
Those scholarships are great, but one thing to really look into is the conditions of these scholarships. Often they will say something along the lines of you need to maintain a 3.0 or be in the 25% of the class etc. To have gotten these scholarships you obviously got a 3.0 in undergrad with ease, but law school is much different based on the curve and the intelligence and work ethic of those in law school. First off to get a 3.0 at most schools you need to be in the top 35% of the class. I know you believe that you will of course be in the top 35%, but 100% of people on the first day of law school are convinced they are going to be in the top of the class, but you don't have to be a math major to see how that works.
If it is a 3.0 requirement there is a 65% chance you will lose your scholarship nothing against you personally, but everyone in law school is smart, hard working, and motivated and there is a good chance you will lose the scholarship. Here is a NY times article explaining how this system works http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/business/law-school-grants.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
BOTTOM LINE CHECK THE CONDITIONS ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT RETAINING THE SCHOLARSHIPS. 3) Personal Feelings about the School
Aside from location and cost each school has a culture to it. When I was a OL and in mock trial competitions I interacted with a number of different schools some I liked others I didn't. However, that is my personal feeling I have visited Notre Dame and love the tradition there and the whole University, but that is just me. You might hate sports etc and be much more into what W & L has to offer. It is a highly personal decision and I highly recommend visiting the school to get a vibe from the school and see if it fits your personality it is a 3 year commitment and if you don't like the professors, students, admins you meet during a visit you won't like the school. 4. Reality of Legal Education
An important thing to realize is that at every ABA school the education is the same. Your first year will consist of Torts, Contracts, Con Law, Criminal Law, Criminal Procedure, and Property. In these courses you will read Supreme Court Cases that are exactly the same no matter where you read them. In Torts you will read the Palsgraf case to understand Proximate Cause, in Hadley v. Baxendale you will learn contract remedies, Criminal Law you will learns mens rea and the elements for burglary, etc. It is all the same no matter where you learn it. 5. U.S. News
If after you analyze the factors above and you still cannot make a decision then use this as a guide, but realize this is nothing more than a for-profit unregulated magazine offering an opinion and should not be the basis of a life altering decision. Conclusion:
Please take my advice and other advice you read on anonymous internet poster boards with a grain of salt. I highly recommend when making a 3 year, 100,000 dollar commitment, that will determine the future of your career that you meet with people from these schools and visit the schools personally. I have been to Notre Dame for a few days, but have never even set foot on the campus of the other schools or even been to the Boston, Georgia, or Connecticut so I have no understanding of the legal markets there so get information directly from the source and if you want use the factors I listed above in your decision.
Good luck in your legal career.
« on: March 05, 2013, 01:17:18 AM »
You win I am going to live and enjoy life continue ranting anonymously on the internet I really don't care that much. I really can't believe I spent this much time arguing frivolous stats with some random anonymous Internet poster.
To the OP remember take everything you read on here with a grain of salt. This is a life altering decision so opposed to listening to people who have never been to the school get first hand knowledge from people with direct experience. However, I am hopeful you had enough common sense to stop paying attention to all the ranting on this thread days ago.
Anti if the job market is really as bad as you say I would spend a lot more time studying to get some kick ass grades opposed to ranting on here as much as you do. Good luck finding a job and passing the bar you will need it.
« on: March 02, 2013, 08:22:27 PM »
OP visit the school yourself, talk to alumni, and get those who have direct experience with it. There are plenty of successful graduates from this school and plenty of people who struggled. The statistics do not mean a whole to since any educational opportunity has a lot more to do with the individual than the school, but do not take any anonymous internet posters advice to seriously any on this board or others is nothing more than that and Michael Scott explains why that is a bad idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvZBg7qLzU8
Visit the school, talk to people with direct experience, etc whether you attend or not is a life altering decision. I realize looking at stuff on the internet is easy to do, but the information is often highly inaccurate and skewed. Mainly because for all you know myself or Anti could be homeless guys in a public library and just read the comments under any Yahoo News story and see how retarded they become anonymous internet poster advice is just not very good before making a 3 year 100,000 commitment visit the school and get information from people with direct experience in the local legal market.
American could be a great choice for you or a terrible one, but you need to do some real investigation before making such a big commitment.
« on: March 02, 2013, 07:58:33 PM »
@Jack I know February statistics are inaccurate, but it is more of a dig at Anti to show that stats can often be misleading. I mean using February Bar Statistics an a non-ABA approved law school Santa Barbara had a better bar passage rate than University of Michigan. http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/4/documents/Statistics/FEBRUARY2012STATS.pdf
and they had the same amount of test takers 15. I could find any statistic to support my argument I wanted as could you or Anit and it will be an endless cycle.
Santa Barbara College of law had 15 takers 13 passed http://learn.collegesoflaw.edu/welcome
(there is the website and it is not even ABA approved.
University of Michigan allegedly one of the top law schools in the world had 15 takers and 12 passed. As a result Santa Barbara must be a better school because statistics don't lie. However, as Jack and I know having taking the bar exam the July test is the real indicator, but in the bar exam administered in February 2012 Santa Barbara did better than Michigan that is a statistic.
Georgetown another top law school only has a 62% rate and 13% are school funded so only 49% of Georgetown grads are actually working in the legal field. http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=gulc&show=chars
However, I am sure within 5 years most people from Georgetown who stick to it to fine.
Anti why as a law student you don't know what the real world is and whatever stats LST shows regarding a school do not guarantee you a job or even that you will pass the bar. (Unless you attend Marquette or Wisconsin, which grant you automatic admission. On the bar exam you will not be able to say I went to X school so let me pass and when your applying to jobs you won't be able to say my school had x employment rate so you must higher me. Soon enough you will be in the real world and see these statistics mean very little. Message to the OP
I am sure your aware that TJSL is not a world renowned school and the low bar passage rate is something to consider. However, this is your personal life decision visit the school and talk to alumni and those actually working in the San Diego Legal Market. Meet people face to face to judge their credibility I am in California, but in the Bay Area and I haven't been to San Diego since I was in high school I have no knowledge of what the legal market is like there or what TJSL's reputation is in San Diego. People who actually live there, work there, and particularly those that attended TJSL will give you insight.
The random internet banter of three anonymous internet posters really shouldn't influence your decision that much whether you attend TJSL will be a life altering decision and you should get information from sources with direct experience. I know on the internet information is easily accessible, but it is often highly inaccurate or doesn't paint a full picture. Honestly, for all I know TJSL really is a terrible school I have never been there and only know a handful of lawyers from there and I don't know any of them that well. The few I have interacted with were fine enough attorneys and people, but it is a small sample size.
Bottom line just really do not make a life altering decision based on anonymous internet posters it is a terrible idea. Visit the school and see it for yourself it may be a great fit or you will know instantly it is not for you. Good luck whatever you decide.
« on: March 02, 2013, 05:05:36 PM »
If law school is so awful then why don't you take your own advice and get out? It truly sounds like you hate the system and nobody is forcing you to attend law school. If you are this upset with law school your going to hate being a lawyer even more and be miserable. Honestly, I would drop out tommorow if I was in your situation it sounds like your miserable. Your the classic example of someone that shouldn't be there so leave and move onto something you enjoy.
« on: March 02, 2013, 12:15:45 PM »
To the OP as you are likely seeing this conversation has now spun completely off course and this proves why basing a life altering decision based on information from anonymous internet poster board is a bad idea. I just love showing this Michael Scott Video to reiterate my point regarding this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvZBg7qLzU8
I don't have a financial interest in any law school, but I could be lying and be the Dean of TJSL posting on the internet to encourage you to attend or I could be some bum in a library. What I really am if you want to believe it is a guy who went to law school and was terrified by posters such as Anti09 when I was a OL. However, having gone through law school I realized that listening to people who have never set foot in a law school classroom and for some reason spends hours a day posting about the pitfalls of law school on the internet probably are not the best source of information. I am also not a good source because I have never met you and know nothing about your situation, what you want, or what is best for you.
Jack24 who posts on this site and I can tell from his writing actually attended law school makes some valid points regarding the economics of law school. I agree with most of that analysis and if you are going to law school to make money and nothing else I would not recommend TJSL or law school in general. However, if you really want to be a D.A., Public Defender, City Attorney, or have some cause you really believe in then TJSL can work out for you, but you know what your personal goals are and perhaps those who personally know you can offer insight as well.
I will offer my own experience to explain the above paragraph in a little more detail. When I was in undergrad I worked for a clinical psychologist who was making a ton of money and loved me. He wanted to put me through psychiatry school and have me partner up with him and I would have a lot more money than I do right now. I really like my old boss and still keep in contact with him, but being a psychologist and listening to rich white people complain about how they didn't feel enough love as a child would have driven me crazy. There are numerous people that love that profession, but it is just not for me. Economically it was not the BEST decision, but I wanted to be a lawyer and I love going to court, understanding Supreme Court Decisions, knowing the law etc. It is the profession for me I go into work everyday excited to show up because being a lawyer is what I wanted to do, but I make far less than the psychologist does and paid more money for tuition than psychiatry school, but to me personally I am happy with the decision.
If you go to TJSL and pass the bar you can probably find work as a lawyer, but it will take time and it will not be much money when you start out. For all three years of law school you will be stressed about finding a job and incurring substantial debt. Then you will take the bar exam with those stressors and it will be a terrible summer and even worse 4 month waiting period. If you pass you will then be a licensed lawyer, but it will then be up to you to make a career with that law license and the money is not great for the majority of lawyers, but it can be a very rewarding career for the right person.
Take everything you read from anonymous internet posters with a major grain of salt. Next visit the school, talk to current students, and e-mail alumni http://www.superlawyers.com/lawschool/Thomas-Jefferson-School-of-Law/fad6dace-84c4-102c-aca4-000e0c6dcf76.html
these are people who can meet and assess their credibility.
Also when making the life altering decision of whether to attend law school or not look inside yourself and ask what is it about law school that appeals to you. If it is because you want to get rich DO NOT go to law school financially there are better career paths. If you really have a burning desire to practice law then I encourage you to pursue the path I knew law school was for me and I am very happy with it, but I know plenty of depressed attorneys as well and I believe many of them are that way because they expected to get rich from the legal profession and if money is your #1 priority it is probably not the profession for you. Good luck whatever you decide.
« on: March 02, 2013, 05:12:26 AM »
Certainly I was fortunate and in many of your other posts I agree with you that from a pure economic standpoint law school is not a good investment. I think many people attend law school thinking it is an easy way to get rich, but if money is the most important thing to a OL I would dissuade them from law school. Despite having never met you I think you would have preferred being an economist or MBA based on your posts and economic analysis of the situation.
However, there are many people who have some cause they believe in and want to be lawyers or just care more about going to court and being licensed to practice law. To those people I think law school can be a wonderful experience as it was for me, but I know many people at my school thought law school was a quick way to get rich and based solely on the financial aspect I don't think law school is a great investment. However, my belief is that there is a lot more to life than a few thousand more dollars in your bank account. For example had I not attended law school I might very well be making more money working for this clinical psychologist I worked for during undergrad who wanted to put me through graduate school and have me be a partner in his practice. I guarantee had I done that my bank account would have been bigger than it is now he had a money making machine, but I would have been bored out of my mind listening to rich white people complain about how they don't feel loved. There are plenty of people that would love doing that it is just not me.
However, as a lawyer you have the ability to represent clients, go to court, and get judgements to resolve issues, which you cannot do unless you go to law school. I love going to work everyday it is an exciting challenge, but if money was the number 1 or very high priority to me law school would not have been a good choice.
So again that goes to my overall point that each person's situation is unique. If you look purely at statistics and costs law school is not a great financial decision, but it can be a very rewarding career for the right person, but to anyone who thinks law school is a quick way to get rich do not go. If you really have some cause you want to fight for or find the idea of litigation exciting then it may be a good career choice.
« on: March 02, 2013, 04:59:39 AM »
Glad to hear you actually visited the campus and made a decision based on real facts. More importantly glad you liked the Michael Scott Video. I imagine Grundy is a unique place to say the least and certainly not for everyone. From your prior posts I gather your from NY and going from there to Grundy would be a major change and if your not up for it do not attend law school there.
I hope that visit showed you the importance of location and how important you personally feel about the school is. Even if it were a top 50 school according to U.S. News I imagine with your personal preferences you would not want to live in a town that small without cell phone service. There are plenty of people out there who would love to study law in an isolated environment like that so hopefully someone who wants to attend Appalachian gets your scholarship money.
If you still want to attend law school I think you are much better off taking the LSAT and trying to get into a school that fits your situation better and not attending school in a town you perceived to be a horror flick hoping you end up in the top 10% of the class. Good luck whatever career path you pursue.
« on: March 01, 2013, 03:41:22 AM »
Well Jack having attended law school I am sure you encountered many people who said they never wanted to be lawyers. I think it is stupid to attend law school if you don't want to be a lawyer, but I am sure you encountered numerous people that said that I know at my school I did.
Furthermore, you know that many law school graduates do not pass the bar exam or even take it. That makes a substantial change in the percentage because as you know it is unauthorized practice of law to work as an attorney without a license.
I don't know what state you took the bar in, but California takes 4 months to release results and you don't get them until the week before thanksgiving when nobody is hiring. You essentially have to wait until January to start looking for work as a licensed attorney, which is 8 months after law school ends in California. The statistics require reporting 9 months after and law students really have a month to look for a job at that point.
When I was waiting for bar results I got numerous interviews and some clerk jobs, but nobody was going to hire me as an attorney until those results came in. I would be very curious to know what the numbers were 2-3 years after graduating from law school, because honestly everyone I went to school with that passed the bar has a job.
Further still money is not everything. I do not think law school is a great financial investment by any means it is far to expensive for what it is. However, being a lawyer lets you do things you cannot do otherwise. I love going to court and representing people, I get to get warrants for cops to bust crack houses, I get resolve nuisance problems through litigation and do all kinds of awesome things I could not do without a law license, but I am not making insane amounts of money either, but I love being a lawyer.
If it was all about dollars and cents I would have worked for this clinical psychologist that loved me in undergrad. He was making bank and wanted to pay for a clinical psychology degree to work for him, but I have no desire to be a psychologist it does not interest me. I am happy with my choice to attend law school.
Now with that to any OL's if you are looking to make big money law school is NOT the place to go. It is very expensive and to expensive in my opinion for what it is, but if you really want to be a lawyer when you pass the bar you have the right to represent client's and do some great things, but what you do with your law license is up to you.
« on: March 01, 2013, 03:31:15 AM »
Anti your basis is that 100% of people entering law school want to be lawyers and that is far from true. Furthermore, TJSL has poor bar passage rates and as a result people who do not pass the bar cannot work as lawyers.
TJSL is on pass with the state average in California of 50% bar passage. If you knew how the bar exam works you would realize you don't get your bar results in California until November so you literally cannot be licensed to practice law until 6 months after you graduate in May. Then people are not exactly hiring during Thanksgiving and Christmas so January is when you can really start looking for work. This is 8 months after graduation so the statistics are very skewed as a result of that alone since 9 months is the reporting date.
With that obstacle alone you can see numerous flaws in the reporting of information. Now TJSL has a 52% bar passage rate which is poor and this means 48% of people cannot be licensed to practice law until results of the February Bar are released in May. So for those 48% they literally could not work as lawyers within 9 months of graduation so the information is again flawed.
To add on to this I cannot tell you how many people I went to school with who had a JD/MBA combination who repeatedly told me they had no desire to practice law and went on to work in business. Not everyone listed working in the business sector is working at Starbucks. There are also people with joint degrees in clinical psychology and other joint programs as well. On top of that I knew several students from the Middle East and South America whose parents were extremely wealthy and just wanted them to go to law school for the intellectual challenge.
When you get through all of those flaws in reporting there are numerous people who wanted to be lawyers when they enrolled, passed the bar, and went on to work as attorneys, but simply never filled out the survey like myself. So the info is terribly flawed based on the factors I listed above.
Again I am all for lawschooltransparency, but show me one other profession that keeps any detailed employment information on their graduates. Law school at the very least does that I am not aware of any other profession that does.
Now with that all said OP TJSL has the worst bar passage rate in California that is not a good sign, but the California Bar Exam is far more up to the individual than the school. In February 2011 Berkeley had a 71% bar passage rate and Stanford a 75% passage rate. http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/4/documents/Statistics/FEBRUARY2012STATS.pdf
. Those are both pretty good schools, but attending them does not guarantee you success on the bar exam.
Now even if you pass the bar it is a tough job market, but it is done I mean am employed as a lawyer and I am rambling on the internet at 12:30 a.m. so it can be done, but it was not easy for me. However, I truly love my job and what I do so if being a lawyer is what you want go for it. TJSL will get you a ticket to take the bar exam and if your ready to really fight and work your ass of good things can happen, but there are no guarantees.
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