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Messages - livinglegend

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161
Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Too Many Good Choices
« on: March 02, 2013, 03:12:26 AM »
Certainly I was fortunate and in many of your other posts I agree with you that from a pure economic standpoint law school is not a good investment. I think many people attend law school thinking it is an easy way to get rich, but if money is the most important thing to a OL I would dissuade them from law school. Despite having never met you I think you would have preferred being an economist or MBA based on your posts and economic analysis of the situation.

However, there are many people who have some cause they believe in and want to be lawyers or just care more about going to court and being licensed to practice law. To those people I think law school can be a wonderful experience as it was for me, but I know many people at my school thought law school was a quick way to get rich and based solely on the financial aspect I don't think law school is a great investment. However, my belief is that there is a lot more to life than a few thousand more dollars in your bank account. For example had I not attended law school I might very well be making more money working for this clinical psychologist I worked for during undergrad who wanted to put me through graduate school and have me be a partner in his practice. I guarantee had I done that my bank account would have been bigger than it is now he had a money making machine, but I would have been bored out of my mind listening to rich white people  complain about how they don't feel loved. There are plenty of people that would love doing that it is just not me.

However, as a lawyer you have the ability to represent clients, go to court, and get judgements to resolve issues,  which you cannot do unless you go to law school. I love going to work everyday it is an exciting challenge, but if money was the number 1 or very high priority to me law school would not have been a good choice.

So again that goes to my overall point that each person's situation is unique. If you look purely at statistics and costs law school is not a great financial decision, but it can be a very rewarding career for the right person, but to anyone who thinks law school is a quick way to get rich do not go. If you really have some cause you want to fight for or find the idea of litigation exciting then it may be a good career choice.

162
Transferring / Re: Admitted to Appalachian but I want to go to Uconn
« on: March 02, 2013, 02:59:39 AM »
Glad to hear you actually visited the campus and made a decision based on real facts. More importantly glad you liked the Michael Scott Video. I imagine Grundy is a unique place to say the least and certainly not for everyone. From your prior posts I gather your from NY and going from there to Grundy would be a major change and if your not up for it do not attend law school there.

I hope that visit showed you the importance of location and how important you personally feel about the school is. Even if it were a top 50 school according to U.S. News I imagine with your personal preferences you would not want to live in a town that small without cell phone service. There are plenty of people out there who would love to study law in an isolated environment like that so hopefully someone who wants to attend Appalachian gets your scholarship money.

If you still want to attend law school I think you are much better off taking the LSAT and trying to get into a school that fits your situation better and not attending school in a town you perceived to be a horror flick hoping you end up in the top 10% of the class. Good luck whatever career path you pursue.

163
Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Too Many Good Choices
« on: March 01, 2013, 01:41:22 AM »
Well Jack having attended law school I am sure you encountered many people who said they never wanted to be lawyers. I think it is stupid to attend law school if you don't want to be a lawyer, but I am sure you encountered numerous people that said that I know at my school I did.

Furthermore, you know that many law school graduates do not pass the bar exam or even take it. That makes a substantial change in the percentage because as you know it is unauthorized practice of law to work as an attorney without a license.

I don't know what state you took the bar in, but California takes 4 months to release results and you don't get them until the week before thanksgiving when nobody is hiring. You essentially have to wait until January to start looking for work as a licensed attorney, which is 8 months after law school ends in California. The statistics require reporting 9 months after and law students really have a month to look for a job at that point.

When I was waiting for bar results I got numerous interviews and some clerk jobs, but nobody was going to hire me as an attorney until those results came in. I would be very curious to know what the numbers were 2-3 years after graduating from law school, because honestly everyone I went to school with that passed the bar has a job.

Further still money is not everything. I do not think law school is a great financial investment by any means it is far to expensive for what it is. However, being a lawyer lets you do things you cannot do otherwise. I love going to court and representing people, I get to get warrants for cops to bust crack houses,  I get resolve nuisance problems through litigation and do all kinds of awesome things I could not do without a law license, but I am not making insane amounts of money either, but I love being a lawyer.

If it was all about dollars and cents I would have worked for this clinical psychologist that loved me in undergrad. He was making bank and wanted to pay for a clinical psychology degree to work for him, but I have no desire to be a psychologist it does not interest me. I am happy with my choice to attend law school.

Now with that to any OL's if you are looking to make big money law school is NOT the place to go. It is very expensive and to expensive in my opinion for what it is, but if you really want to be a lawyer when you pass the bar you have the right to represent client's and do some great things, but what you do with your law license is up to you.

The end.

164
Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: March 01, 2013, 01:31:15 AM »
Anti your basis is that 100% of people entering law school want to be lawyers and that is far from true. Furthermore, TJSL has poor bar passage rates and as a result people who do not pass the bar cannot work as lawyers.

TJSL is on pass with the state average in California of 50% bar passage. If you knew how the bar exam works you would realize you don't get your bar results in California until November so you literally cannot be licensed to practice law until 6 months after you graduate in May. Then people are not exactly hiring during Thanksgiving and Christmas so January is when you can really start looking for work. This is 8 months after graduation so the statistics are very skewed as a result of that alone since 9 months is the reporting date.

With that obstacle alone you can see numerous flaws in the reporting of information. Now TJSL has a 52% bar passage rate which is poor and this means 48% of people cannot be licensed to practice law until results of the February Bar are released in May. So for those 48% they literally could not work as lawyers within 9 months of graduation so the information is again flawed.

To add on to this I cannot tell you how many people I went to school with who had a JD/MBA combination who repeatedly told me they had no desire to practice law and went on to work in business. Not everyone listed working in the business sector is working at Starbucks. There are also people with joint degrees in clinical psychology and other joint programs as well. On top of that I knew several students from the Middle East and South America whose parents were extremely wealthy and just wanted them to go to law school for the intellectual challenge.

When you get through all of those flaws in reporting there are numerous people who wanted to be lawyers when they enrolled, passed the bar, and went on to work as attorneys, but simply never filled out the survey like myself. So the info is terribly flawed based on the factors I listed above.

Again I am all for lawschooltransparency, but show me one other profession that keeps any detailed employment information on their graduates. Law school at the very least does that I am not aware of any other profession that does.

Now with that all said OP TJSL has the worst bar passage rate in California that is not a good sign, but the California Bar Exam is far more up to the individual than the school. In February 2011 Berkeley had a 71% bar passage rate and Stanford a 75% passage rate. http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/4/documents/Statistics/FEBRUARY2012STATS.pdf . Those are both pretty good schools, but attending them does not guarantee you success on the bar exam.

Now even if you pass the bar it is a tough job market, but it is done I mean am employed as a lawyer and I am rambling on the internet at 12:30 a.m. so it can be done, but it was not easy for me. However, I truly love my job and what I do so if being a lawyer is what you want go for it. TJSL will get you a ticket to take the bar exam and if your ready to really fight and work your ass of good things can happen, but there are no guarantees.


165
Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« on: March 01, 2013, 01:17:32 AM »
Before you read my post realize that anyone posting on this board or others is nothing more than an anonymous internet poster that knows nothing about you, your situation, or what is best for you. Whether you attend law school and where you attend it will be a life altering decision and therefore your best bet is to talk to people with direct experience from the school. Any information you receive on internet boards is far from credible and for all you know I could be a bum in a library posting all it takes to post on this board is an internet connection so please take all advice from internet boards with a major grain of salt.

Anti is correct that you should not spend 60,000 more to attend a higher ranked school. Remember U.S. News is nothing more than a magazine offering an opinion and you should not make a 3 year 100,000 life altering decision based on what they think. Remember U.S. News ranks more than law schools for example they claim Alberqueue, NM is the best place to live right now http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/real-estate/articles/2009/06/08/best-places-to-live-2009 .

Are you going to move to New Mexico because U.S. News says so? I imagine not and your choice of law school should be no different. I strongly encourage anyone going to law school to use their common sense and not have a for profit unregulated magazines opinion be the basis of a life altering decision. 

What you should do is visit both schools the culture well be different and see which one suits you better. You will be spending 3 years of your life there make sure you can stand it during a visit. When I was a 0L I visited several different schools and some I liked others I hated, but that doesn't mean we will have the same opinions. This is your life so make sure to visit the schools and see what fits you.

As for the scholarship what are the conditions on it. Often a law school will require you to maintain a 3.0 or maintain some sort of class rank. I know as a OL you truly think you will easily get a 3.0, but the law school curve only allows 35% of people typically to have a 3.0. This is nothing against you, but there is a 65% chance you will not be in the top 35% so if that is the requirement for the scholasrhip don't make it the basis of your decision, because there is a good chance it will be gone for years 2 and 3.

Another thing to realize is that legal education is exactly the same at ABA schools. Your first year will consist of torts, contracts, civil procedure, etc. You will read Supreme Court Cases like Pennoyer v. Neff in Civ Pro, Palsgraff in Torts, etc. The Supreme Court does not write separate opinions for different law schools what you learn is literally the same whether you are at Depaul or Chicago so I really don't know how U.S. News determines Loyola is 67 this year and Depaul is 87 this year. I actually do know the forumula it makes no sense and as you can see from this chart schools change drastically year by year Depaul was ranked higher than Loyola in 2009. I assure you nothing changed at either school and a 0L in 2009 that chose Depaul based on rank is now saying WTF Loyola is now higher. I just cannot stress enough do not make a life altering decision based on a magazine.

If this were University of Chicago v. Depaul then consider it, but nobodoy cares about the difference between 67 and 87.

As for Anti's crusade to use Law School Transparency please remember these are far from accurate. First off having gone to law school I can tell you many people have no desire to become lawyers. I knew numerous people who did joint MBA/JD programs and went into business, others did JD/Clinical Psychology Degrees, there were numerous others that were insanely rich and just went to law school for the experience, then there were numerous others that did not pass the bar, and then with the ones that did pass the bar and wanted to become lawyers many of them did not report their information, because it is not required to do so . Therefore, this statistics are highly flawed.

With that said the legal market is tough and neither of these schools will guarantee you a job, but I don't know of any profession or educational institution that guarantees you a job at graduation other than West point and Annapolis. If you really want to be a lawyer then I encourage you to attend law school and see, which of these two schools is a fit for you. Do not make U.S. News the sole basis of a life altering decision. Good luck should you pursue a legal career.


166
Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: February 27, 2013, 10:02:11 PM »
I don't know where you get 250,000 from their tuition is 19,000 per year http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/publications/2012og/aba4973.pdf (direct from LSAC)  19,000 x 3=57,000 in tuition not 250,000.

As for the 26.7% again where do get these numbers LSAC says it is 86% employment. Now not everyone in law school has any desire to practice law and the circumstances of individual are so varied that these stats are essentially useless on top of the fact that many people fail to report their information because it is not mandatory. Do you fill out every survey that comes your way? Probably not and when you get something 9 months after you graduate from your law school it is the last thing on most grads mind.

As for the lawyer yes I am, but maybe I am just some insane delusional person all it takes to post on this board is an internet connection. Therefore, OP before making a life altering decision really understand what you read on this board or others should be taken with a major grain of salt. I have never set foot on the Thomas Jefferson Law School Campus and I am assuming Anti has never attended a law school class so we are some of the last people you should be listening to when choosing whether to commit 57,000 in tuition or more importantly 3 years of the prime of your life.

Anti as for the other professions I listed my point is you can make an argument that any profession is a bad idea. There are numerous boards and posters such as yourself who say do not become a CPA, Cop, firefighter, etc. This world is a cruel nasty place and nothing will be handed to you. So my point if OP really wants to be a lawyer he should pursue it, because there is not some easy path to take.

Feel free to continue ripping on people, but again OP realize we are nothing more than anonymous internet posters so please do not take anything said on here to seriously when making a life altering decision such as whether or not to attend law school and where to attend it. Should you pursue law school I wish you good luck and feel free to personal message me regarding things related to the practice of law in California, where I am licensed. If you choose another career path that is fine to, but make sure it is one that will keep you happy education is a long-term investment and if you choose the law school path it will be hard to get off of. If you go some other graduate school route that path will be hard to get off as well.


167
Transferring / Re: Admitted to Appalachian but I want to go to Uconn
« on: February 27, 2013, 09:48:15 PM »
MycousinVinny one thing to understand is that Jack, myself, and Anti are three anonymous internet posters on the internet who you have never met and know nothing about you.  Furthermore, I know I have never set foot on the Appalachian Law school Campus or even the State of Virginia and I imagine the same is true for Jack and Anti. Feel free to listen to us, but review Michael Scott's statement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvZBg7qLzU8 makes me laugh every time, but it is so true we could say anything we want without repercussion. When making a life altering decision such as whether to attend law school and move to a small town in Virginia and pay likely 100,000 you should contact people with direct experience from the school. Here is a list of lawyers from Appalachian http://www.superlawyers.com/lawschool/Appalachian-School-of-Law/fad60298-84c4-102c-aca4-000e0c6dcf76.html?l_uuid=e29bdaf9-2fbc-4369-b4b1-65e53af754d0 e-mail them see what they say, because they know far more than anyone posting anonymously on the internet who has not set foot on the campus.


With that said I think Jack's make some great points above. You can bust your ass and be the smartest guy in the class, but your computer could crash during exams, your Mom could get cancer the week before finals, etc, etc. Even without those extreme and unlikely scenarios you need to be in the top 10-20% to transfer and there is an 80% chance that won't happen. I guarantee you everyone at Appalachian will have a "reason' for their LSAT score or GPA and once they are in law school they will capitalize and be in the top 10%, but 100% of people think that. 90% will be wrong and even if you overcome the 90% odds of being in the top 10% many schools may have a policy like the one Jack encountered, some may only care about law school GPA, the list goes on and on, but I would be a substantial amount of money that if you attend Appalachian you will not transfer.

Now with that said does that mean you cannot have a career as a lawyer? No plenty of people succeed from every ABA law school, but if you attend Appalachian some doors will be closed. You are not going to be hired as a Supreme Court Law Clerk or by Cravath. You can find a job as a City Attorney, in Family Law, as D.A., personal injury, maybe some business formation etc, but some doors will be closed. I am assuming you know that, but perhaps you don't I do remember at my law school numerous 1L's were baffled that the U.N. was not interviewing on campus for people draft treaties, firms that pay 160,000+ to first year associaties were not kicking the door for career services down, etc.

If you attend Applachian you will likely graduate in the middle of the class. I imagine at the end of your first year you will work for as an intern for some government office, perhaps extern for a judge, or work for a small firm lawyer. In your first year these will likely be unpaid internships and then for your second year again you will probably intern somewhere during the school year, but since it is in Grundy, Virginia there might literally be nothing around so perhaps not. Your 2L Summer maybe you can make $15-20 an hour and that is if your lucky. Your 3L again I don't know the economic climate of Grundy, Virginia so perhaps no opportunities exist there during the school year. Then you will take the bar exam and there is probably a 40% chance you will fail first time around based on the school's numbers. There is a 60% chance you will pass and if you pass you will probably spend 2-3 months looking for a job maybe more maybe less and your first job out of law school will range between 40-60k. After a year or two of experience the numbers will move up to 60-70k assuming you succeed in your first few years. Then after a few years you may get a lot of clients, a reputation, etc and you may succeed or people may think your no good.

So there is no way to say how it will turn out I would say the assessment of the law school experience is accurate, but once your out in the real world assuming you pass the bar you can succeed as a lawyer from Appalachian, but there will be some doors will be closed to you, but many of these same doors will be closed if you transfer to the 83rd best school as well or Appalachian.

Conclusion:

In your above post you said you want to be a lawyer and that is good there is only one way to become one and that is by going to law school. It is a large time and financial commitment with no guarantee of success and coming from Appalachian will make success difficult, but it can still be done.  If you are ready for the challenge and truly want to be a lawyer then go to Appalachian, but if you think law school is your Golden Ticket to success it is far from it.

You know better than anyone else what you truly want and whether you attend law school is a life altering decision so contact people with direct experience from the school and remember take everything you read from anonymous internet posters with a major grain of salt. Whether you attend law school or not there will be obstacles, but if this is what you really want I encourage you to go for it. Good luck whatever you decide.

168
Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: February 25, 2013, 10:54:48 PM »
Although I am all for lawschooltrasnparency and their mission realize it is far from an accurate picture. This information is based on reports from 39% of students so that mean's over half the sample size is missing. I can tell you I graduated, passed the bar, and got a job. I never ended up reporting my employment and many people simply do not take the time to fill out a survey, or release their financial information, etc. Therefore I was a no-report despite working as a lawyer.

Furthermore, I posted this exact thing on another thread:

Copy/Paste from other thread


Realize that law school is the only profession I know of that is required to report employment information on an easy to access database. I would love to see the employment numbers for recent college graduates I am sure it is far worse than law schools. There is no centralized database for medical grads, MBA grads, accounting grads, or undergrads that I am aware of. At the very least law reports statistics and as far I know not one other profession does that.  If you know of a site that reports universal job statistics and everyone is reporting 90% employment making 80-100k from CPA school then I guess that is the route, but plenty of people struggle to find jobs in every profession as evidenced by my two second Google search.

A pessimist accountant saying in your first year you will make only 45-50k if your lucky. http://www.city-data.com/forum/work-employment/1004020-think-twice-before-you-get-accounting.html

Another thread of desperate accountants submitting endless resumes without finding a job. http://www.another71.com/cpa-exam-forum/topic/passed-all-exams-on-first-attempt-still-cant-find-a-job



A whole article explaining why an MBA is a waste of money. http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/04/pf/jobs/business_school_waste.fortune/index.htm

Another article explaining why an MBA is a waste of money http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/04/pf/jobs/business_school_waste.fortune/index.htm

Another thread of a guy with an MBA posting for a job http://www.indeed.com/forum/loc/Chicago-Illinois/MBA-graduate-can-t-get-job/t303546

Maybe being a cop is easy?
Oh nope http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/09/more_than_700_nj_police_office.html

another thread of people looking for law enforcement jobs http://policelink.monster.com/topics/83557-cant-find-a-law-enforcement-job/posts

How about just a plain old Bachelor's everyone must be hiring people with a B.A. or B.S. right? Uh no.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57434159/half-of-college-grads-cant-find-full-time-jobs/

http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/college-grads-cant-find-work-1b7vkvg-183086941.html

I could go on and on, but the reality is starting a career is difficult and nobody likes looking for work. I don't know if your still in college or attending law school, but you can see there is no easy route that I can find. At the end of the day people can complain on the internet about finding a job or get it done. Personally when I was waiting for bar results I was rejected by over 400 employers it was depressing, but I did have a few interviews and thankfully one came through once results were released, but it was not easy. It will not be easy no matter what profession you choose that is my point.

However, if you know of some golden ticket where everyone is getting hired, you don't have to pay any tuition, and you are paid exorbitantly please let everyone me know as well as everyone else on this board I would honestly love to know about it.

Conclusion:
OP Thomas Jefferson is not going to result in anything being handed to you, but every other profession will present it's own obstacle unless Anti09 knows of the Golden Ticket profession that I have been trying to find for over 30 years. If being a lawyer is what you want to be then go for it. There is a higher likelihood that you may not pass the bar attending TJSL your numbers are likely lower than others and this means you are not a good standardized taker. Standardized test taking makes no difference in your career as a lawyer, but your ability to take standardized test does make a difference on the bar and you cannot be a lawyer until you pass that exam.

There are plenty of TJSL grads and people from lower ranked schools that pass, but it is likely going to be more difficult for you to pass the bar than someone from Harvard. Furthermore, people from Harvard will have an edge on you in the legal job market and for that matter in any profession as Harvard has an MBA school, an accounting school, etc. If you want to be a lawyer and you know what it entails I encourage you to go for it. I knew what I was getting into when I enrolled and I love being a lawyer. I have numerous classmates that hated their experience and others that love their jobs more than I do. It is a gamble, but nothing is certain life and if being a lawyer is what you really want there is only way to become one and that is going to law school.

Good luck to you.

169
Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Too Many Good Choices
« on: February 25, 2013, 09:49:26 PM »
Yes most people do not find jobs right out of law school or any profession starting in any career is a struggle. Most lawyers find jobs if they pass the bar many schools even top schools have 70% bar passage rates that means 30% of the class simply cannot work as lawyer, still more are rich and have no desire to practice law, the possibilities are endless.

Is any law school a guarantee absolutely not, but education whether it be law, accounting, medicine, etc is a long-term investment. Lawyers with 10 years of experience make a substantial amount of money many people who work in huge firms making 140-160k right out of law school burn out, others struggle to find the first job, it is endless. My overall point on this board is that if you want to be a lawyer then go to law school, but yes there are risks there is no guarantee anything will work out. However, the same thing applies in any profession if you want to work at McDonald's making minimum wage you can get that job, but if you want to be a Cop, Firefighter, Lawyer, Doctor, salesman, etc there will be stiff competition and law is no different.

Realize that law school is the only profession I know of that is required to report employment information on an easy to access database. I would love to see the employment numbers for recent college graduates I am sure it is far worse than law schools. There is no centralized database for medical grads, MBA grads, accounting grads, or undergrads that I am aware of. At the very least law reports statistics and as far I know not one other profession does that.  If you know of a site that reports universal job statistics and everyone is reporting 90% employment making 80-100k from CPA school then I guess that is the route, but plenty of people struggle to find jobs in every profession as evidenced by my two second Google search.

A pessimist accountant saying in your first year you will make only 45-50k if your lucky. http://www.city-data.com/forum/work-employment/1004020-think-twice-before-you-get-accounting.html

Another thread of desperate accountants submitting endless resumes without finding a job. http://www.another71.com/cpa-exam-forum/topic/passed-all-exams-on-first-attempt-still-cant-find-a-job



A whole article explaining why an MBA is a waste of money. http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/04/pf/jobs/business_school_waste.fortune/index.htm

Another article explaining why an MBA is a waste of money http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/04/pf/jobs/business_school_waste.fortune/index.htm

Another thread of a guy with an MBA posting for a job http://www.indeed.com/forum/loc/Chicago-Illinois/MBA-graduate-can-t-get-job/t303546

Maybe being a cop is easy?
Oh nope http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/09/more_than_700_nj_police_office.html

another thread of people looking for law enforcement jobs http://policelink.monster.com/topics/83557-cant-find-a-law-enforcement-job/posts

How about just a plain old Bachelor's everyone must be hiring people with a B.A. or B.S. right? Uh no.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57434159/half-of-college-grads-cant-find-full-time-jobs/

http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/college-grads-cant-find-work-1b7vkvg-183086941.html

I could go on and on, but the reality is starting a career is difficult and nobody likes looking for work. I don't know if your still in college or attending law school, but you can see there is no easy route that I can find. At the end of the day people can complain on the internet about finding a job or get it done. Personally when I was waiting for bar results I was rejected by over 400 employers it was depressing, but I did have a few interviews and thankfully one came through once results were released, but it was not easy. It will not be easy no matter what profession you choose that is my point.

However, if you know of some golden ticket where everyone is getting hired, you don't have to pay any tuition, and you are paid exorbitantly please let everyone me know as well as everyone else on this board I would honestly love to know about it.

170
Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Too Many Good Choices
« on: February 25, 2013, 05:35:45 PM »
Ok again the survey you produced shows a total of 18% of reported salaries for lawyers then means 82% are unaccounted for. This does not necessarily mean they are unemployed either as I have detailed my own experience I am a working attorney and I simply never bothered to fill out the survey detailing all my personal financial information to my school. Most people just move on from their school start working, hang out with their friends, girlfriends, etc the survey is voluntary to fill out and as displayed only 18% of people reported.

Furthermore, of the 18% that reported the mean salary was 78,000 in 2011, which was the worst year for legal employment. In 2009 the mean was 93,000, but again this is based on only 30% of people reporting. These numbers are highly inaccurate because they are based on little information. Furthermore, lawyers are paid by their abilities and it can range 0 to well over 100,000 and it just depends on each person these statistics mean very, very, little.

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