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Messages - Refused Party Program

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Take everything you hear with a grain of salt ...

I had one interviewer in a screening interview tell me he was "calling me back" and that he would "really like for [me] to come back and talk to other attorneys about working at [firm] this summer." Two weeks later, thanks but no thanks letter in the mail.

On another screening interview, the guy told me he was "recommending [me] for a call back interview." Three weeks later, thanks but no thanks. I felt this wasn't as bad since it seemed like he was saying he was putting in a good word, but there were no guarantees.

On a callback interview, the leader of the practice group where I will end up told me: "We really need people with your background, I hope that you accept our offer and I look forward to working with you next summer." Two weeks later, thanks but no thanks ...

Moral of the story: the person you are talking to doesn't always make the decision. So even if they really wanted you there, it doesn't mean you will get an offer/callback. You never know until you get the offer.

Also, keep in mind that callback offers don't come right away. So you I wouldn't fret yet. I also wouldn't count on it either.

Job Search / Re: new suit NECESSARY for callback interview?
« on: September 29, 2008, 02:04:10 PM »
1) Poster two above is absolutely right about not seeing the same people. There was only one call back interview I have had thus far where I even saw the person who screened me. If you were going to change anything, change the tie, or the shirt and the tie. That ought to be sufficient.

2) Proper fit on your suit is important. Personal story: one of the career services people at my school pulled me aside during one of our OCI days and told me that she overheard two of the interviewers talking about me. They both said they liked me, but one of them thought my pants were too short. I didn't get a call back from that day. Frankly, I agreed and got the pants changed (they were an inch too short, no joke). Before you get something tailored, be sure to know where things should hang. Many tailors (especially at department stores or Jos A Bank) do not know what they are doing.

3) I agree there is no reason to get any funny fabrics other than wool. You can almost always find a suit for $200 at Jos A Bank and sometimes Macy's or a place like that. The ones at Target are OK if they fit you. Just make sure it is dark as dark colors tend to hide imperfections better. Plus, dark (black, navy, charcoal) is more conservative.

Job Search / Re: Are NY firms going to $190K
« on: September 29, 2008, 01:22:28 PM »
I have been hearing/reading this rumor for a while, and I just do not see how it is possible. I understand that NYC is more expensive than Dallas (where many firms are paying $160K). However, using the starting market in Dallas (or say Atlanta which is 145K) to say that lawyers in NYC should get a raise is slightly erroneous at best. Market dictates salary. If NYC can "only" pay 160K, and students take it, why would they raise. What is their incentive to do so? Fairness? I doubt fairness is considered. Frankly, we are all going to make too much money for what we can do coming out. While I'm not certain, partners most likely think we get paid too much.

Also, where is this money coming from? I doubt it would come out of the pockets of partners. So, you might make more, but you will have to bill more, or they will hire less first years. Either way, you are going to be working harder and you life as a result will be less fulfilling (unless the only way you can define yourself is by being a BigLaw Hotshot Lawyer with a six figure salary and if that is the case I'm not sure "fulfilling" is really an accurate description of your life). Is $30K more a year really worth it?

One poster mentioned he/she wasn't sure what NYC firms have to offer since you are basically getting paid less once you factor in cost of living. That is a fair statement, and one I thought at the start of the job search. However, NYC firms can offer jobs where as some of the smaller markets cannot. Right now, the job market SUCKS. Many, many people with great grades and good personalities cannot get a job here in Atlanta (I go to Emory). However, we can find jobs in NYC and CA. So while Atlanta may offer a better COL/pay ratio at least at first), there are less jobs to go around, so it really isn't an option. I think the big firms here got caught up in the salary raises and now it is starting to hurt them.

Current Law Students / Re: law school for late bloomers
« on: May 30, 2008, 06:07:10 AM »
I think the LSAT wouldn't have been any harder earlier in life. I think where you might run into some trouble is preparing for it. A full time student without work or family commitments might have more free time to prepare. I found time, so this wasn't an issue for me.

Getting financial aid wasn't an issue for me, however, I didn't need more than the regular subsidized Stafford Loan. It will impact "free money" but it won't impact loans. It ought to not impact merit money, which is most of the free money anyway. I think my expected contribution last year was over $50K and I still got the loan I needed.

I will be honest, there were times this past year where I really thought I had made a bad choice. Especially around Feb or Mar, where first year was really starting to get to me. Things turned around once we started Mock Trial and Moot Court competitions, mainly because I felt like I had "found my place" in the legal landscape. Right now, I'm actually very excited about my future career, so I would say it wasn't a bad decision.

Being older, just be prepared for your fellow classmates to have a different attitude than you simply as a result of being younger. There most likely will be some students in your age group. However, the majority will be 25 and under. This was a little bit more of a problem for me than I thought it was going to be. I've made my friends here, and I'm just fine. It will just be shocking to you how "high school" law school can be.

Law school involves spending a lot of money and putting yourself through an emotional ordeal. Really make sure it is what you want to do.

Current Law Students / Re: Entertainment Law? Tax?
« on: May 28, 2008, 05:33:53 PM »
I'm a person with both an engineering and a music background. Honestly, I'm not too sure why Entertainment and IP get lumped together. The only overlap is in copyright.

I think if you really want to get into entertainment law, you need to accept that you are going to be doing a lot of leg work and there are very few positions with firms doing entertainment and they are highly sought after. They are also mostly in NYC and LA. If you want to do Entertainment Law and you want to stay in Boston, go out and make connections. If you already have some, make some more. You can make it work there, Boston is a huge city; but it is going to take a lot of work on your part. There is nothing wrong with wanting to do it, however, it most likely won't be on a traditional path (2L summer with firm..blah blah blah)

I was talking with someone who works at a boutique IP from in Atlanta. His previous firm wasn't interested in doing Entertainment work, but allowed him to develop his Ent clients on his own time provided it didn't interfere with his work with the firm. The firm he is with now is open to him bringing those clients in. Something like that might be an option for you. You might be able to get into a firm doing one thing, then switch over to another area of practice. Again, entertainment is rough and very competitive.

Also, if you work for a firm, be prepared to represent the "bad guy" (not artists). Since you are a musician, it might be something to think about.

As far as course work, from what I've found out here are the big areas: Ks, Negotiations, Copyright (or maybe just an IP survey course), Torts (Libel/Slander) and maybe Crim Law. I think that Ks, K drafting and Negotiations are going to be your best bet. Also, regardless of what area you practice, those courses would not hurt.

I was really hot on entertainment coming in, not so much anymore. Mainly this is because I really want to litigate. However, I have thought about trying to develop some small time music clients on my own, maybe as pro bono, in addition to my regular work.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Legal Writing: who has a leg-up?
« on: April 16, 2008, 03:47:47 PM »
Legal writing is just different. It helps to know things like what passive voice is and how to avoid it, but in a weird way, if you are a "good writer" you might in fact be a bad legal writer.

Legal writing is not about being creative. It is not about being philosophical. It is about being direct and clear. There is absolutely a formula and if you want a good grade in the class, learn your professor's formula and do not stray from it at all.

When you get in the real world, the formula might be slightly different, but there is still a formula to be followed.

Legal writing is very different than what you might be used to.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Emory ASW Review [Long]
« on: April 10, 2008, 06:23:42 PM »
I just want to throw my 2 cents into the NYC vs. ATL debate.

When I came here, I was pretty dead set on trying to find work in NYC. Now, I would say I'm leaning more toward ATL. That is a pretty big swing.

Part of it is hours vs. salary vs. cost of living vs. lifestyle. In ATL, while salaries aren't 160K I'm pretty sure the top firms are paying 145K. You will have to work a lot of hours, but from what I understand not as much as you would in NYC. Plus, it is much, much, much cheaper to live here than NY. Atlanta is cheaper than Orlando (where I am from most recently). Plus, the lifestyle here is a little more laid back, which as I am getting older, I'm starting to appreciate.

I wouldn't say that the large ATL percentage is all self selection but it is a HUGE part of it. More people I know are interested in working here than NYC. By a large margin.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Emory ASW Review [Long]
« on: April 07, 2008, 01:44:05 PM »

Things I didn't like...
The law school has to share a bookstore with undergrads, medical students, business students ect. 
Everyone is telling first year students to go to Post Briar for housing because it is gated, however one of the students I ate lunch with told us that there have been five muggings/robberies in the last year there.

The bookstore issue is much less of a problem than you probably think. I've been in there a lot and it is usually empty or only has other law students in it. It is a non issue.

As to Post Briarcliff, I have no idea what hooks they have in the school, but there are plenty of options that are 1) cheaper 2) safer and 3) in nicer neighborhoods. The only reason people live there is because they push it on incomings so much. Yes there have have been some robberies there this school year.

So, if those are your only negatives, I think you ought to come here. They are easily mitigated.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Emory ASW Review [Long]
« on: April 06, 2008, 04:57:31 PM »
(3) Some people are over-sensative about some stuff.  If there's a few students studying on a Saturday, that doesn't mean the school is cut-throat or over-competitive.  People shouldn't be getting stressed, or feel anxious if people ask them where else they are looking, for example.  This over-sensitivity isn't reflective of the students as a whole by any means, but over the course of the weekend I heard a couple comments from different people that I thought were somewhat ridiculous.

I just want to address the studying on Saturday issue, especially since I was one of the people in the K&S room of the library studying during ASW. This is a very hectic time. Exams are three weeks away. If you aren't studying on Saturday at this point you are in trouble. Plus, Moot Court competitions are going on which makes people a little tense and takes them away from their other classes. Plus, if someone is worried about studying on Saturdays, law school isn't for them.

My experience: the students here are not competitive. Everyone is friendly if you are friendly. There is a good mix of people both geographically (we have a lot of natives, Floridians, North Easteners and a few Caliofornias and Midwesterners thrown in for good measure) and ethnically. We are little on the young side, but that doesn't take away from anything. With the money the school is throwing at the incoming class, you really can't go wrong.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Emory Class of 2011
« on: April 06, 2008, 04:39:42 PM »

(2) Any info on the Poncey-highlands area?  I took a tour of N Highland Steel, and it was really, really nice.  Is the traffic terrible from that area or anything?

I essentially live in North Poncey Highlands or on the south aide of VaHi depending on how you look at it. The light at Ponce and Braircliff/Moreland is awful. Coming home in the afternoon, Braircliff south bound is pretty ugly. However, I really like the area. You are close to everything and can walk most places which is nice. You can visit earlier in the thread where I discussed the pros/cons of not living where every other law student lives. If you have any specific quetions, feel free to PM me, I'd more than happy to answer specific questions.

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