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Messages - Toogie

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What's the point of that? Then you could do your business without the LLM anyway if foreign language skills weren't a big deal. 

You could still do business internationally without the LLM, but not necessarily legal business.  Generally, what makes the Duke LLM in International and Comparative Law useful is the fact that it provides the students with knowledge of international legal systems.  The foreign language part of it just enables you to use this knowledge more effectively in a given international market. 

Are you kidding? Most LLM's do not confer the right to be eligible to take a bar exam, especially in foreign countries. France's don't and neither do Canada's. I understand that the knowledge is important but that's like saying because I have a PhD in Islamic Studies but don't speak Arabic I can do legal business in the Maghrib. Ya you have knowledge of the area but without the applicability of fluency what's the point.

If I could please try to negate JGCESQ's terribly poor advice.

I could easily humiliate you here, but I won't. Call it a philanthropic gesture and an acknowledgment that your comments may owe more to stupidity than malice.

Oh, so in 2 years you attained guru level knowledge on the legal profession.

No, but I feel more qualified to comment than, say, people who have spent no time in the profession.

This is ridiculously flawed logic and dangerously bad advice. Your post is offensive.

Saliently, you offer conclusory statements but no argument in support of your contention. 


First of all, people who go to Harvard and Stanford aren't blessed. It wasn't luck. They are intellectually superior.

    Yes, as evidenced by George W. Bush (Yale undergrad, Harvard Business), Pat Robertson (Yale Law School), Ted Kaczynsnki (Harvard undergrad) and many others. I do not deny that the Ivy League is home to some extraordinarily bright people who are intellectually superior, but those who actually are intellectually superior are the exceptions, not the rule.

    Schools like Harvard and Yale are home to a relatively small core of extraordinarily, indeed unimaginably, bright people. That is, the John-Roberts types. Unfortunately, in addition to this core, a considerable portion of the student body at these schools owes its presence there to the advantages attendant with affluent birth, familial relation, and environmental circumstance. One need look only to George W. Bush (Yale, Harvard); John Kerry (Yale); Bill Bradley (Princeton); male private part Cheney (who managed to fail out of Yale not once but twice despite the notorious grade inflation at those schools); Paul Giamatti (admitted to Yale when his father was acting President of the school); Jordana Brewster (Yale, grandfather was a former President of Yale) and many, many, many others to see that, although the Ivy League is home to GREAT schools, enrollment at an Ivy League school is hardly proof of superior intellectual capacity.   

    I have occasion to deal with a great many people who went to Harvard and Yale. Some of them are brilliant; others are shockingly mediocre. Attempting to assess intelligence based on where--or whether--someone went to school is a very, very perilous enterprise that will doubtless redound to your detriment. I have worked with a kid from Cooley who had a far better handle on litigating matters than I did, and I have met kids from Harvard who were utterly clueless. As a matter of fact, I recently had a summary judgment motion wherein opposing counsel was a recent Harvard Law graduate. His brief was average, and he lost. Later, he called me and asked for my suggestions on writing better briefs.

     On the whole, the Ivy kids that I have met are gracious, humble people, and I imagine that is so for a number of reasons. First, the ones who actually ARE smarter (and they certainly exist) feel no need to advertise their intelligence. Second, they know, by virtue of having been at these schools, that many of their classmates were mediocre and are undeserving of the credit appended to them solely on account of having a degree from Harvard. 

They work harder, are smarter etc. It's not luck, it's skill and ability. Skill and ability which will be used on the job.

    I have to say that you're an unlikely spokesman for all things academic and intellectual. Before you discuss skill and ability, I'd counsel you to learn the difference between the restrictive "that" and the non-restrictive "which." If you're going to hold yourself out as intellectually superior, it might be advisable to master the rudiments of English grammar lest you become one of the clueless Harvard kids to whom I adverted above.


Personal appeal can get you very far in life. People with personal appeal from Stanford/Yale/Harvard become the President of the United States.

Well, I think Richard Nixon (Whittier), Ronald Reagan (Eureka College), and Jimmy Carter (U.S. Naval Academy) may beg to differ. Moreover, that Yarvard/Hale students continue to be the leading candidates for such offices is more rightly attributable to blue-blood privilege than to ability or intelligence. For every Bill Clinton who gets in there legitimately, there is a George W. Bush. Does anyone honestly believe that John Kerry and George Bush were the two smartest people in the country? No, they're both patrician types, so they got the nod, but make no mistake: designer-label academia is starting to fade. The percentage of Ivy-League CEOs in the Fortune 500 companies has been in decline for a decade.

     Further still, it should be noted that of the five self-made men who rank in the top 10 on Forbes Magazine's list of the richest Americans, only one (Warren Buffet) has a college degree of ANY kind. Gates did drop out of Harvard, but Larry Ellison (CEO of Oracle) dropped out of the University of Illinois; Michael Dell (Dell Computers) dropped out of the University of Texas; and Paul Allen (Microsoft) dropped out of Washington State University.

    You may wonder why there are only five self-made people on the list of the ten richest Americans. It's because the other five people on the list are the heirs of Sam Walton,  who, incidentally, never went to college.     

People with personal appeal from the bumblef*ck lawschool your friend went to brag about making $200k after two years in some ambulance chasing firm. $200k after two years is not that impressive. Sure it's unheard of and amazing for 4TT, but is common for top school graduates. Sounds like your friend busts his *ss for that money. I suspect he's the front man in an ambulance chasing firm. He's the one literally chasing the ambulance. Then he uses his charm to get the welfare-check receiving trash to sign the retainer.

     I won't comment on the substance of this twaddle because, frankly, there is no substance. But on an unrelated note, I get the sense that you're a TOEFL student. Before going to law school, whether it's at Yale or somewhere else, you really want to do something about your English. It's very, very poor.

Holy ownage, you're good.  :D

Are you fluent in any different languages? If not getting an LLM as an American student won't really help you in that field I would assume, unless you wanted to become a professor.

Since English is the international language of business, I would think the LLM would still be useful even if you're not fluent in a foreign language. 

What's the point of that? Then you could do your business without the LLM anyway if foreign language skills weren't a big deal. 

Ya I might stay at one of their student halls over there. I heard Alumni Hall is pretty decent.

The only reason I'm interested in Vermont is their JD/DESS-DJCE program which basically gives you the J.D and an advanced French law degree. I've always dreamed of working in a law firm in Paris, but I don't know how difficult that will be. Most of the lawyers at Paris offices, even the American firms that have an office in Paris, are native French. Of course it's a 4 year program unlike Detroit's. Plus I don't know the reputation of Cergy-Pontoise in comparison to Windsor (which does have a decent rep for producing grads that go to Bay Street BigLaw).

Are you fluent in any different languages? If not getting an LLM as an American student won't really help you in that field I would assume, unless you wanted to become a professor.

How likely is the chance you'll jump to U of Oregon? We should def talk and coordinate our schedules and stuff? Do you plan on living in Windsor? I picked up the 2006 edition of the USNews report and I was pleased to see Detroit's starting salary went up by a lot. I think the school is on the rise with the new Dean and the facilities they plan on building.

Hey man!

Yes please do, I'm very interested! So you're saying the joint cost of both tuitions is 22500?

My email is (edit

Please post here when you forward them.

Oh Canada! / Re: Windsor/Detroit Mercy Joint Program
« on: May 21, 2006, 10:51:45 PM »
Hey I was accepted to the jd/llb program. Just bumping this thread in case any1 else has any updates.

Hey guys, my two choices are Vermont and UDM.

With UDM I'm already accepted to their dual JD/LLB program with the University of Windsor (3 yr program and I'll be a part of a select group of 50)and with Vermont Law I plan on completing their JD/DESS-DJCE with Cergy-Pontoise (4 yr program). Plus Vermont is known for their excellent environmental and international law program.

My question is that my first priority will be to transfer but ultimately if I can't or decide against it, which would school would you recommend going to. Also which school would be "better" to transfer from in terms of being accepted into a tier 1?

Transferring can be tuff, so whatever school you choose make sure you would be 100% happy graduating from there in case you donít get out. Second compare the grade curves at the two schools, the harder the grade curve the harder it will be to do well and transfer out.

As to the schools you listed UDM/Vermont, donít know anything about UDM, I considered Vermont for my self. If you really are 100% sure you want to do environmental law, and on the east cost that is a great school. A few things to keep in mind though, its in the middle of nowhere, you will need to travel for networking, and will need to budget to move each summer to get some legal experience. How long will your joint degree take? Will you be able to use every summer for legal work? If so that a lot of moving and extra money.

Personally I HATE moving. So I went to the school that offered me the best program I was interested in, in the biggest city I could find so I did not have to go far for networking/internships.

Think over your goals, where you want to live, what you want to do, and your tolerance for doing the things you need to do to get there, then choose the school that is best for you.

Good luck!

Thanks for the great advice, an amazing thing that's built into the program with Vermont is that I'll already have two summer internships while in France working with international firms. Our director of comparative law programs at Vermont has made a lot of connections at some high profile firms with intl offices and so we're connected that way.
Thing is that I want to work internationally, preferably for an American firm with an office in Paris and such.

With UDM I'd want to work in Canada because Windsor has a MUCH better rep over there than UDM does over here.

Where should I go next fall? / Re: Dizzy from the mailbox. Help!
« on: May 21, 2006, 02:26:54 PM »
I was accepted into UDM's JD/LLB program with Windsor so I'm also curious about the rep of Mercy itself considering that is where 55% of my classes will take place. To the IL at UDM: Have you met any students in the joint jd/llb and if so what do they have to say about it? I know most of them are Canadian but have you met any American students? Thanks.

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