Law School Discussion

I finally took my first prep test. I thought I'd post my results, and later when I take the LSAT, I'll post my final score.

There's no telling yet whether my improvement will be encouraging to people just starting out, but I thought it might be helpful for people just starting out to hear some success stories.

Does anyone remember their first score? If so, I'd love to hear how much you improved. I'm sure other newbies would be interested too. I was looking for a thread like this when I discovered this site.

I scored a 152 on the June 2007 prep test, my first crack at a whole test - 63 correct out of 100. So much for my suspicion that being a programmer would make me a natural on the Logic Games section - only 7 correct out of 23. 15/25 on the first LR, 20/25 on the 2nd LR section, 21/27 on the RC section. Overall, I'm pretty happy with the results. I scored higher on RC than I expected, and the LG score doesn't worry me too much. I think I can improve a lot once I read the PowerScore book.

One question about the PowerScore books. I know they use real LSAT questions, but I'd actually like to read about the different types of questions in the LG section and see examples, but I don't want to use up questions from real LSAT tests. Is every example in those books a real LSAT question? Actually, on the LG section, I don't think I'd remember the correct answer because the answers are typically lists. But on the LR and RC sections, I'd probably remember the correct answers.

I just remembered, today is an official LSAT test day isn't it? I feel for you guys that are taking the real deal while I write this. Hope you're doing well.

Hey,

Starting with a 152 on your first full timed practice test is a good sign in terms of your abilities and improvement potential.  Significant improvement with proper prep is very much possible.  Even LSAC advises students to prepare for the LSAT in order to achieve ones maximum potential score.

I may have already posted this.  On the first timed LSAT practice test I took cold with zero previous prep and with no idea whatsoever about what was on the test I scored a 151 or 152, forgot which of those two.  My final score on an administered LSAT that counted was 177, so significant improvement is achievable.  Granted, I worked my arse off over many months to improve and achieve that score.  It didn't come easy and I experienced lots of ups and downs in the process leading up to the real thing. 

Being a programmer (I am too), you might be over complicating your approach to and analysis of the logic games and related questions and thinking they are more complex than they actually are.  That section was my nemesis during study/prep time and kicked my butt many times because I was over thinking/complicating my analysis of them, not simplifying things properly for a while and wasting a lot of time while doing ones for practice.  After fighting with the LG's a lot (and at times wanting to throw the books out the window or set them on fire!) I refined my approach and mastered them. 

It ended being my best section, I only missed one question, the first question of the section, that was easy and I lost that point because I was nervous, scared of the section and accidentally mis-bubbled my answer on the score sheet.  I had determined the credited response but my hand did a dyslexic or whatever thing and filled in the wrong bubble. 

Since then and in the following years (especially once I began making a living teaching and tutoring people for the LSAT), LG's are simple to me.  They are super formulaic with many repeating patterns and constructions of recurring game types, logical structures/relationships, and predictable types of incorrect answer choices that are offered. 

In sum, since it is a standardized test, by definition it has to and does follow and repeat the same patterns and types of logical circumstances each time to consistently measure students aptitude with the measured skills time after time.  Each new test form just does it with a different veneer in terms of the subject matter/topics/stories/etc. in the questions to overlay and test the same set of core skills. 

I'm scoring in the mid 160's on my practice tests right now, which I'm okay with.  Yet, I'm afraid that on Saturday, with the anxiety and all other factors, I may fall below 160.  If I don't feel like I did well on Saturday (and is later confirmed by a poor score), should I take it again in February so that it will be submitted for this round of applications?  Or would it look bad to have taken the lsat twice in a row? I would really hate to wait until next year to apply. Advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

If you are completely committed to applying for fall 2010 admission to a Law School, don't score up to your maximum potential on the test this Saturday and retake (after having prepped more and better) in February, you need to check out the deadline dates of the schools you want to apply to. 

Some LS's will hold your application and consider a February score for evaluation and possible admission that application cycle, but many will not because of how late in the application cycle February LSAT scores are released.  Check with the schools you are interested in to determine whether they will consider a February 2010 score for fall of 2010 admission.

Having two LSAT scores on your LSAC candidate report is not really as big of problem like it used to be given the major policy change a few years ago with how schools are ranked that now allows schools to report to the ranking places just the highest LSAT score of admitted students rather than being required to report the average score of a student that took it multiple times.

However, for admission purposes, having only one good reported score on your record looks much better to admission committees than having multiple reported scores.

Quote from: Jeffort on December 01, 2009, 01:52:24 PM

Simple things like proper nutrition (fruits, veggies, vitamins, especially B complex vitamins, carbs, protein, etc.), proper and regular sleep pattern, some moderate cardio exercise like a mild jog or some time on the treadmill or something at the gym (but not tons of time on it that will drain you and require recovery time). 

...coming from a guy whose sole source of nutrition is beer and cigarettes. 

lol

But no, I take my vitamins and get in other good stuff daily.  Sushi is my favorite, those Japanese people have figured out great tasty nutritional blends over the centuries.  Plus, I've got and keep drinking little bottles of a generic version of Ensure.  Seriously, I survived off pretty much just Ensure and Taco Bell for about a week when I took and passed the bar exam years ago. 

I must admit though, those little vanilla flavored Ensure things go well with a beer and a smoke!

Jeffort,

No hard feelings here. I understand the need to keep the information here untainted.
There's too much at stake.

I'm definitely not planning to take the Dec LSAT. I'm looking at next June at earliest.
I learned a hard lesson in the perils of under-preparation as an undergrad - I have a 2.6
GPA to prove it. If I do this, I'm going to do it right, and try to put at least 200 - 300
hours of prep time in.

Thanks for the heads up on the authenticity of prep materials. The Powerscore books
seem to get mentioned here a lot. Do they use real exam questions?

Since you've been teaching for many years, maybe I'll take you up on your offer to answer
questions. I'm most confident in my ability to do well on the Logic Games section, because
I've been doing software development for many years. So I essentially solve logic puzzles
for a living. I know the Logic Games on the LSAT are a very specific kind of logic puzzle,
but what I'm saying is that I feel like I probably have the aptitude to do well there with
enough practice.

What I'm not confident about is the Reading Comprehension section - I read like a 5th grader:-)
Well, maybe an 8th grader. In your experience, is it possible to make significant improvement
there? I know it depends on the individual, but can you give me an approximate range of what
you've seen as far as "number of questions improved by".

What about Logical Reasoning? I think I'll be alright there, but it seems like a cross between
reading comprehension and logic, so I'm not so confident. What do you typically see there as far
as number of questions improved by?

While we're at it, I might as well ask the same question about Logic Games. What kind of improvement
do you typically see there? I'm not looking for a money back guarantee - just a ballpark idea of what
kind of improvement people see. Maybe I should start a new thread in the admissions forum asking this
question.

btw, anyone have any advice on how to search this forum. Has anyone had luck using google and providing
the site name? I'm going to try that right now and report back.
I'll try "lsat shill ptoomey site: lawschooladmissions.com"

Just busting chops Jeffort - hope to hear back from you.
Thanks for all the info.

Glad to hear back from you ptoomey and that our minor 'spat' is water under the bridge so to speak. 

Planning ahead and prepping to take the June 2010 LSAT, especially given your other life responsibilities you mentioned sounds like a good idea.  That would give you time to really dig in and get ready for it as well as balancing everything else you have on your hands. 

Yes, the PowerScore books and classes use authentic licensed LSAT questions.  As for self study books for prep, the PS books are by far the best.  I've read and reviewed all of them and compared them to most of the other ones out there over the years. 

Yes, improving your performance on the RC section is very much doable but it is typically the hardest section to improve ones score on, with one of the main factors behind that being that since it is the most boring and tedious section, students tend to avoid it and not dedicate time to practice and review it during study/prep time. 

The logic game section is typically the easiest to improve upon for most people that hit it head on since it is extremely formulaic. 

I suggest that you resist and delete from your mind the thoughts that invite you to spend time comparing yourself to the averages of previous test takers while prepping to try and predict your future improvement/score.  Instead, use that mental power and time you have available to dig into the materials and work on doing things to improve your score.  Statistically, an average represents a group of people, not an individual, and is not a good way to base your decision about how hard to study and work to improve your final score on the real test day. 

Most people (with rare exceptions) totally suck and end up with a low score on the first full real timed LSAT PT they take.  That score is just your baseline/starting point going in cold and is meant to be used to guide your focus in terms of weak areas and strong areas in order to guide your study focus.

Many many people have improved substantially from first timed practice test to final test day score due to dedicated proper study and instruction.   I'm one of those people.  The first full timed LSAT PT I took, going in cold without any prep and no clue about the substance of it and just showing up with some pencils to the first day of a prep course I scored a 151 or 152 (forgot which) and my final score on an administered LSAT that counted is 177.

Basically, you have to want it, put in the work, and fight for it using quality resources and spending a lot of time studying, reviewing and practicing everything unless you are one of the super rare 'naturals'.

Hi Jeffort,

I can assure you,  I'm not a shill. Actually, I can't ASSURE you that I am not. I can only TELL you that I am not. The only reason I posted those links was because they were so different in level of difficulty, and I thought I might get some explanation of why that is, if I posted the links.

I don't blame you for being on the lookout for people doing that. I've found some great information since joining this forum, and I would hope that there's a minimum of that kind of activity on here.

In an effort to TRY to assure you, consider this:

-Even in the post where I included those links, I didn’t ask if anyone recommended those 
 materials.
-I haven't posted any questions about which materials to use, except when I asked where
 I could find prep tests.
-Sorry if my posts were vague. I thought they were excruciatingly specific and
 rambling:-)
-If my posts seem ambivalent, it’s because I am. I’m 43 years old with a boatload of kids.
 A law degree would allow me to do work that I already know I’m very interested in. I took a
 course in Estate Planning as part of a Certified Financial Planner certificate, and became
 interested in law school. As we all know, law school is no picnic. I’m trying to figure out
 if this is really something I can consider doing, and my score on the LSAT is going to be a
 major factor, because of a low GPA. My situation is anything but typical, so I’m kind
 of all over the place trying to figure this out, before I really hunker down and get serious
 about studying for the LSAT.

To answer some of your questions:

Quote from: Jeffort on November 30, 2009, 08:05:59 PM

ptoomey, if you are really an actual student seeking admission to Law School and legitimately looking for quality LSAT test prep advice and instruction rather than being a deceptive shill from somewhere like say Atlas LSAT Test prep it would be helpful, since you keep posting vague contradictory stuff, if you would post accurate information about your study plan ideas, things you've done so far, materials you have and gone through or are considering getting, discussing prep ideas, and asking legitimate questions that a real student revving up to take the LSAT would ask, etc.

I don’t really have a plan yet, because I haven’t figured out if I'm definitely going to apply for law school. At this point, I’m still trying to figure out what a realistic LSAT score might be, how to get a baseline score, how possible it is to improve from that baseline, etc. That's why I've been asking questions in this forum specifically.
Maybe EarlCat can advise whether I should post my questions elsewhere. This seemed like the most logical place to post, but maybe I should ask those types of questions in one of the forums where people have already taken the LSAT. As far as what materials I've worked through - only the 3 sample questions at novapress, and 2 sample Logic Games at the atlas site. My next step is to go through the test that EarlCat pointed me to at the LSAC site.

Hopefully I've assured you. I've been getting a lot of great information on this forum and don't plan to disappear any time soon - unless my score on that baseline is a 130:-) If that happens, ptoomey will be back attending to the aforementioned boatload of kids.

Hey ptoomey,

No worries.  Thanx for the detailed reply. 

Wow, raising several children and simultaneously trying to prep for the LSAT plus working on figuring out the ins and outs of the LS application process is certainly a lot to juggle at the same time.  Just prepping for the LSAT without children and without having other demanding responsibilities can be overwhelming.

I really hope, given the very limited prep you have done, that you are not planning on taking the December 2009 LSAT.  To achieve your maximum potential score on an administered LSAT requires many hours/days/weeks/for some many months of preparation, study, practice and review.  It's not a test that one can cram for at the last minute like is possible with most college exams. 

Some of the basics:  DO NOT study and practice with non authentic LSAT materials that did not appear on a previously administered LSAT.  I looked at the Atlas site and they offer many 'fake' LSAT questions/logic games that were not produced and administered by LSAC and therefore are not REAL LSAT materials. 

The lengthy development, pre-testing, and various other quality control procedures that are based on and controlled by a ton of complex psychometric factors LSAC employs for every question that appears on an administered test in order to ensure they administer a consistent standardized test every administration cannot be duplicated by others.  To say it simply, Friends don't let friends practice with fake LSAT materials.

There are about 60 or so authentic previously administered LSAT tests available for students to use for preparation, so there is no shortage of real materials to use and therefore no need to resort to using synthetic materials.   

Get more authentic LSAT test questions and study, practice and review with those and if you are going to self study rather than hire a tutor or take a class from a quality prep provider, make sure to get quality prep books that only use real LSAT questions.  The Nova press book does not qualify as a quality LSAT self study resource and most of the LSAT prep books you can find on the shelf at book stores are terrible in terms of properly preparing you for the exam.  I've read/reviewed them all over the years.  Feel free to ask questions about anything with your prep process and I'll try to answer them as will EarlCat and possibly others.  I've been teaching and tutoring students how to substantially improve their score for about 9 years now with great success. 

Sorry to have come down hard on you at first.