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Messages - Maintain FL 350

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I have read about the low pass rates on the Baby Bar, and this is concerning for me.

As long as you attend a CBE accredited school, you'll be exempt from the FYLSE (unless you're disqualified and have to seek re-admission, I think).

California has CBE accredited schools, unaccredited registered schools, and unaccredited unregistered schools. If you go to either of the last two types you'll have to take the FYLSE. All online or correspondance schools fall into one of those two categories, and a few brick & mortar schools do too (California Southern Law School in Riverside, for example). Make sure to confirm that the school is accredited by Calbar and not just registered.

If you just want it to further your current career and not to practice. There is the EJD Option (can't sit the bar, but no fybx requirment and about 20 less credits required to graduate)

This is just my opinion, but I think that the potential benefits of an EJD accrue to very, very few people. For the vast majority of students an EJD is waste of time and money.

It doesn't qualify you to take the bar, it's almost as expensive as a bar qualifying JD (non-ABA), and nobody takes it seriously anyway. I'm sure that there is always some benefit to acquiring limited, general legal knowledge, but you'd want to do a serious cost/benefit analysis.

I worked at a large national non-profit organization and in consulting before going to law school. JDs, MBAs, and few other degrees were considered beneficial (and sometimes necessary) for promotion. An EJD, especially from an unaccredited online school, would have been pretty much disregarded. I just don't see the investment paying off for most people.

Law School Admissions / Re: Odds with a low GPA, but high LSAT score.
« on: October 19, 2012, 12:05:43 AM »
At this point, without a final GPA or LSAT score, everything is pure speculation. You really can't be sure what your GPA will be, and you definitely can't predict your LSAT score. I'm not trying to sound discouraging, but I think most people probably score lower than expected.

Keep your grades up, and study like crazy for the LSAT. Take a prep course as you get closer to applying. Your major will likely have little or no impact on admissions. Even if you don't get into an elite school, a high LSAT will help you get scholarships.

In the US, UofL would be only one with name recognition.

My understanding is that while a standard University of London degree would qualify the holder to take the bar in a few states (CA, NY, and maybe a few others), the U of L online degree would not. Is that correct?

Law School Admissions / Re: Chances?
« on: October 18, 2012, 10:40:12 AM »
Do you have any other suggestions of where to apply? 

With a 3.6/156 you can probably get into something like half the law schools in the country, so it's really a question of where you want to live and what you want to do with your degree.

Keep in mind that once you get outside the realm of the elite nationally recognized law schools (Harvard, Yale, etc.), pretty much all other institutions have regional or local reputations. The specific differences in rankings become very muddled at that point. At such schools your internship/clerkship opportunities, alumni network, and ability to establish your own contacts are going to be local. For example, if you want to live in Colorado, the University of Denver is probably a much better choice than American even though American is ranked higher by USNWR. Although American might be ranked higher, it's not so prestigious that most employers are going to give you a job based on pedigree alone. A DU grad who has had three years to network and intern is going to be in a much better position to obtain employment in Denver.

You can extrapolate that example to other markets. If you go school at Michigan State and then show up in D.C. after graduation looking for a job, you're going to have a hard time competing with American grads who have already made their contacts. If you wanted to live in LA, for example, would a degree from the Tier 1-ranked University of Iowa open more doors than a degree from a local southern California school like Southwestern or La Verne? I doubt it. I live in LA and I think most lawyers here would say " that in Canada?"

There is a difference between the way that law students think about rankings, and the way that lawyers think about rankings. If you ask lawyers which law schools are the best, invariably Harvard, Yale, and Stanford come up. But if you ask which is ranked #36 and which is ranked #63, they don't know and they don't care. At that point they rely on past experience and local knowledge.

Think about where you want to spend three or four years, and what you want to do with your degree. Don't let some magazine's arbitrary rankings scheme override your common sense. Law school is an intense, often stressful affair, and you want to be somewhere where you feel comfortable and (relatively) happy. 

Black Law Students / Re: 3.0 career gpa but have yet to take the LSAT
« on: October 17, 2012, 10:13:59 AM »
Elaborate on 1L is a year long standardize test??

Your grades in law school will usually be based on just one exam at the end of each semester. Law school exams are very difficult, comprehensive, stressful affairs for most people. You will spend the entire semester preparing for just one exam. They are nothing like the exams you took in undergrad, and you'll actually be competing for grades with your classmates. A level of performance that would have gotten you a solid "A" in undergrad might get you a C- in law school.

I suppose that law school exams aren't standardized in the strict sense, since each professor creates their own exam, but the format (essay) and topics don't really vary. The point is, if you have a tough time with standardized exams law school is going to be very challenging.

I almost forgot: you will also have to pass the MPRE to graduate, which is a standardized exam.

What LSAT score do the CBE schools usually require? I assume 140s? If so, you should be fine if you previously scored high enough to get into a T2.

However, they are requiring you to buy the Home Study Survival Kit which was written and put together by one of the professors at the school (Fleming). I find this somewhat shady.  I understand needing books, but why must I be forced to purchase something written by a professor at the school?  It is a bunch of items to help pass the baby bar. 

The entire law school book-selling complex is a scam. It drove me nuts when I'd pay $130 for a book (that the prof would barely even use), and the bookstore would then refuse to buy it back because an updated edition with two new cases was in print. I bought used online as much as possible, but sometimes had to buy new at the bookstore. It's a huge ripoff.

That said, the baby bar prep material seems like a good investment. Fleming has an excellent reputation for test prep, and $275 is nothing if it helps you pass. You'll waste a lot more than $275 waiting to retake the baby bar.

Among the DL crowd Northwestern California seems to have one of the better reputations. Anybody know why? Do they have a different program than other DL schools?

To prevent making the same mistake twice, I'd prefer a smaller, less expensive, and local alternative that I can attend while still holding my current job.  The tuition at my target CBE school is $5000/academic year (part time) while another 3rd tier school is $27,000/academic year (for part time).  Because student loans are not an option (due to my past defaults and wanting to pay my existing ones off before I retire) my only option are schools of this caliber.  Besides, if I am able to get into this school but then not able to pass the baby bar, my sunk costs would have been considerably less.  I am not being pessimistic here, just realistic.

It's actually nice to see someone with an intelligent, realistic plan. That's a rarity around here. The issues that you're considering are the exact ones that you should be considering: finances, goals, and debt. You're off to a good start.

I would defintely talk to the Dean in person and explain the situation. I don't know what Calbar's rules are, but a 14 year old disqualification shouldn't hold you back. When you asked them previously they may have assumed that you were just recently disqualified. $5000 per year is insanely cheap, I didn't know that any of the CBE schools were that inexpensive. The few that I looked at were more like $15,000 per year.

I know lots of attorneys who went to CBE schools. They work in small firms, solo, and government offices, and have successful careers. If you're aware of the potential limitations, an inexpensive CBE degree can be a better investment than a non-elite ABA degree. Personally, I'd rather have a $20,000 CBE degree than a $150,000 debt from someplace like Whittier or Chapman. Once you get a few years of experience under your belt your degree will be of secondary importance anyway, but that debt would still be with you. The big firms, some mid-sized firms, and federal jobs are out, but they aren't the only games in town. The lack of debt will allow you to be very flexible with your employment options, something that is incredibly valuable in this market.

My understanding is that the CBE schools don't offer a lot in terms of internships and career services, so you need to start making connections immediately. (This is something ABA students should do, too, but often don't).   

Although the ABA allows reapplication after 2 years, no school is required to accept applicants who have been academically disqualified. In your case the local CBE school is operating under the Calbar rules, but it's probably a similar framework.

I'm actually surprised that an academic disqualification from 14 years ago would have much impact at all. I'd suggest contacting multiple ABA and CBE schools and seeing what they say. Have you taken the LSAT yet? A very good LSAT score and an expertly written addendum might go a long way towards overcoming your old disqualification, especially if you focus on schools for which your LSAT would be considered high.

As far as the debt goes, I get it. I chose a scholarship over ranking in order to avoid debt and it was the best decision I ever made. Your GPA is set in stone (and it's good), so your LSAT is the best chance at obtaining a scholarship. I don't know if someone with an academic disqualification can get a scholarship, but if you have a very high LSAT  it will sure as hell help you argue for one.

A word on CBE schools: I think they can be a great option for the right kind of student, but you really need to assess whether you're that kind of person. Think about your post grad goals, and whether or not a CBE degree will help you get there.

Black Law Students / Re: 3.0 career gpa but have yet to take the LSAT
« on: October 15, 2012, 07:20:44 PM »
1L is a year long standardized test. If you can't take that, don't go.

That is absolutely true. And remember, after law school you'll have to tackle the bar exam, the mother of all standardized tests. The LSAT is a joke compared to bar. It doesn't mean that you can't do it, but the odds are not in your favor. Study as hard as you can, be disciplined, and take a prep course (if possible). After that, if you score very low, you need evaluate whether or not going $100-200k into debt is worth it for a degree that you may not be able to use. Here in CA it is not unheard of to meet people who never passed the bar.

To answer your question, however, you can probably get in somewhere with as low as a 145-49. Cooley, Nova, Southern, and a few others might take someone with those numbers. Become very informed about your post grad options if you choose one of these schools.

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