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Messages - Maintain FL 350

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561
Much better.

562
All I have to do to keep my scholarship is stay in the top 20% of my class, and based on my academic performance I can even receive more money

I know nothing about you or your abilities, OP, but staying in the top 20% of your class at any law school is no small feat. I'm not saying you can't do it, just be aware that you may lose that scholarship and will have to decide whether to continue at Brooklyn or not. In law school you won't be competing against slackers like you were in undergrad. Those people have already been weeded out. Pretty much everyone in your class will be smart, accomplished, and ambitious. In other words, just like you. Many of them will be competing to retain their own scholarships as well.

Law school is competitive in a way thats hard to describe. It's very different from undergrad and its difficult to predict how you will perform. Again, I'm not saying you can't do it, but top 20% is no joke. You could try to negotiate better terms with Brooklyn. Maybe shoot for scholarship retention based on good standing or at least top half. It's worth a shot.

563
A couple of things to consider:

What are the stipulations on Brooklyn's offer? If they're generous and the scholarship is relatively easy to keep, that makes the Brooklyn offer more attractive. If the offer requires you to maintain a high class rank, that's obviously less attractive since you may lose it anyway.

What do you want to do after law school? If you want biglaw or a prestigious federal job, Fordham might offer a better chance assuming you perform very well once you're there. Performing well in law school is very different from performing well in undergrad, it's much more difficult to predict. If your goal is smaller firms or local govt jobs, Brooklyn might be just fine.

The real issue is debt. I'm not very familiar with the NY market, but I doubt that Fordham is really worth 200k compared to a full ride at Brooklyn. Fordham is ranked higher, but it's not an "elite" school, like Columbia or NYU. Most firms and agencies that will hire someone from Fordham will probably also hire someone from Brooklyn. If you were contemplating a full ride at Brooklyn vs. sticker price at NYU/Columbia, that would be a different story and I'd say go for the elite institution. It's important to be entirely realistic about how much a degree from a particular school will help you. I don't doubt that Fordham has a better overall reputation, but 200k worth of debt is a huge gorilla on your back after graduation. Less debt (or no debt!) from Brooklyn will give you much needed flexibility after law school. In this market you need to be competitive and adaptable, not chained to a debt which limits your options.

Good Luck!

564
"The weird, loud, obnoxious, snobby guy in the back ususally didn't find employment." I love it! That describes about half the people I went to law school with.

OP: I don't live in NY and I have no experience with the NY market, but if a firm or government agency is willing to hire from St. John's wouldn't they be willing to hire from Brooklyn? The possibility of retaining the $$$ at Brooklyn is much better, and less debt will give you greater freedom and less stress after graduation. Something to think about.

565
General Board / Re: 2011 Employment Prospects worst in 18 Years
« on: June 12, 2012, 06:27:15 PM »
Those numbers don't surprise me one bit. The market is bad right now, and may remain that way for years. I wonder, however, how many recent grads simply refuse to accept jobs that they think are "beneath" them? Do alot of young grads have a $$$ figure in mind, and refuse to work for less? I'm also surpised by how many grads refuse to go into solo practice. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware of how tough it would be to start up a solo practice fresh out of law school. But if I'd been looking for a job unsuccessfully for nine months, I'd take anything.

There are some jobs that aren't worth taking, or are actually bigger resume killers than being unemployed. The market is the market - if there were jobs out there worth taking, people would take them. There isn't some mass boycott of worthwhile jobs being turned down out of some sense of entitlement, as you seem to be implying. To the extent there are jobs out there that are going unfilled, the market has deemed them worthless.

I certainly don't mean to imply that there is some "mass boycott of worthwhile jobs". Obviously, the vast majority of law school grads would take a good job if offered one. I'm simply asking a question: are some people refusing to take crappy jobs because they think that they deserve better? Your comment that "some jobs aren't worth taking, or are actually bigger resume killers than being unemployed" seems to indicate that my suspicion is true. 

I've worked at both private firms and government law offices, and I can't think of a single legal job (including doc review) that looks worse on your resume than a huge blank spot. Please don't get me wrong, I completely understand the frustration and anger that someone can experience when they've spent 150k on a degree and aren't getting a good return on the investment.

I think that there are three basic problems: 1) a terrible economy,  2) huge student loan debts, and 3) unrealistic expectations. Many of the people I went to law school with were entirely unrealistic about their post-graduation options. They thought that a law degree guaranteed them a comfortable income right off the bat. They also accrued so much debt that only a high paying job could possibly service the payments.

The fact is, if you graduate in the bottom half of your class from a T2-T4 (maybe even some T1s!) you will need to hustle like crazy to get some experience during those first few years out of school so that you can eventually land a good job. You may need to move to another city or move in with your parents, you may need to take crummy DUI and PI cases, and you may have to work very long hours for very little pay. It sucks, but this is the reality of the situation. This is why I constantly urge people to research their post-law school options before accruing the debt, and to choose scholarships over rankings.

566
General Off-Topic Board / Re: mittster: satan?
« on: June 11, 2012, 09:54:12 PM »
I have a hard time telling Mitt and Obama apart.

One was born to a single mother, became editor of the Harvard Law Review and taught at the University of Chicago, and the other was born rich and doesn't give a crap about you.

567
General Board / Re: 2011 Employment Prospects worst in 18 Years
« on: June 11, 2012, 05:41:28 PM »
Those numbers don't surprise me one bit. The market is bad right now, and may remain that way for years. I wonder, however, how many recent grads simply refuse to accept jobs that they think are "beneath" them? Do alot of young grads have a $$$ figure in mind, and refuse to work for less? I'm also surpised by how many grads refuse to go into solo practice. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware of how tough it would be to start up a solo practice fresh out of law school. But if I'd been looking for a job unsuccessfully for nine months, I'd take anything.

568
A friend of mine graduated from a CBE school and was permitted to take the NY bar straight out of law school. I'm not sure what criteria she had to meet, but it can be done. Some states, however, specifically require a degree fom an ABA school. From what I've seen, most of the states that will allow a non-ABA grad to sit for their bar still require five years of practice in CA first.

One last point to consider: the vast majority of law schools, including ABA schools, are essentially local institutions. The reputation, internship opportunities, and alumni networks are strongest within the immediate geographical region. It's important to understand that if you get a CBE degree and move out of state, there is a good chance that very few people will have heard of your school. They may be skeptical about a non-ABA school, and you may have a tougher than usual time finding a job.

Personally, I think that the CBE schools are solid, adequate institutions. Outside of CA, however, I'm not sure that the degree will be viewed the same. Something to think about.

569
General Off-Topic Board / Re: My 1L neighbor is driving me crazy
« on: June 10, 2012, 08:26:41 PM »
I've had a year of dealing with the crazy 1L GGU Law School student upstairs screaming and crying all night because she is constantly flunking tests.  Her parents pay for her $2000/month apartment, so she's not on financial aid.  I just found out that the reason she's still around this summer is because she's retaking the classes she flunked in GGU's summer school and no one would hire her for an internship.  Does anyone know how many retakes Tier 4 schools allow before they'll academically disqualify a student?  I can't take two more years of of hearing about her failures at 2 a.m. every night.

Interestingly, lower tier law schools like GGU are usually far less tolerant of academic underperformers than higher ranked schools. One of the biggest criticisms of tier 4 schools is that they admit large numbers of unqualified students, and then eliminate 25-35% through academic attrition. At a school like GGU the grading curve is probably set somewhere around 2.5-2.6. By comparison, Hastings has a curve of  (I think) 3.2. Considering that all ABA law schools teach nearly identical first year curricula, it's probably easier to get a 3.0 GPA at Hastings than it is at GGU.

If your plaintive neighbor was actually "constantly flunking tests" she'd likely have been gone after the second semester. If she re-flunked those same classes in summer school, it's hard to believe she'd still be allowed to continue. Schools like GGU have no qualms whatsoever about kicking out underperforming students. This is in part to protect their bar pass rates, which the ABA has started to consider for accreditation purposes.

Law school is incredibly competitve compared to other graduate programs. Not just difficult intellectually, but actually competitive like a sporting event. This causes some people to freak out and lose it. They can't handle the stress and probably shouldn't be there. It sucks to have obnoxious neighbors, but try to understand what she's going through. You mentioned that your graduate program would drop a student with two Cs. Imagine that your professors in grad school were only permitted to give As and Bs to 30% of the class, and were mandated to fail a certain number.

570
It sounds like the local CBE school is your only realistic option unless you're prepared to move closer to an ABA campus. A three hour roundtrip four nights a week probably isn't doable, especially during your first year. If you can move closer to an ABA campus, you may want to consider that option. No matter where you decide to go, however, ask yourself what you want to do after law school. Do you want to continue with law enforcement and become a prosecutor, open your solo practice, join an established firm? Answering these questions should help you decide where to attend.

Personally, I think that CBE schools can be a good option for the right student, but it's important that you become fully informed as to what (if any) limitations attending a CBE school may have on your post-law school options. Perhaps you already know this, but big and mid-sized firms are unlikely to hire a CBE grad. Most of the CBE grads I've met work as solo practitioners, small firm lawyers, and local government attorneys (DA, public defender, etc). However, you will have to compete with ABA grads for those jobs, too.

It seems that some CBE schools enjoy a geographic advantage by being the only law schools in their area. Cal Northern and San Joaquin come to mind. (Western State used to have this advantage until Whittier, Chapman, and Irvine moved in next door). In those areas, enough of the local bar is made up of graduates of those schools that any non-ABA "stigma" is essentially removed. In the bigger markets it's much tougher, with heavy competition from well-known ABA schools.

I meet successful CBE grads on an almost daily basis, and I've spoken with dozens of them about their experiences. To a person, the success stories are individuals with lots of drive and ambition. They knew that they couldn't rest on their laurels, so they hustled like crazy, gained experience, and made good careers. This is what I mean when I say that CBE schools can be a good option for the right student. If you are a motivated self starter and already have solid connections that may lead to a job, a CBE degree might be just fine. If you're not already "plugged in", ABA is probably a better overall option.

Also consider the cost. CBE schools are cheaper than ABA, but still pretty expensive. Is that 50-60k going to pay off? Only you can answer that. See if you can sit in on a few classes at your local CBE and find out if you're really interested. Law school tends to be far more dull than most people imagine, and you may want to check it out before committing. As far as out of state practice goes, some states will allow you to take their bar exam after 5 years of practice in CA. Contact the individual state's bars to find out the details.

Good Luck!

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