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Messages - Maintain FL 350

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One of the reasons that Canadians come to the U.S. to attend law school is that Canada only has about a dozen law schools, and they are all pretty competitive to get into. Someone with say, a 3.0/155 would probably not get into any Canadian law school, but they can get into a number of American schools.

After graduation they can return to the province in which they intend to practice, take additional classes in Canadian law, and qualify to article after about a year and a half. So yes, it is a longer route but it can work out. One of my best friends from law school went to law school in California and qualified for the British Columbia bar this way.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: A WARNING about Phoenix School of Law
« on: January 13, 2015, 10:43:57 AM »
I know this is way late, but can we please talk about how Phoenix School of Law (now Arizona Summit...) is a private, for-profit school that costs at least $40,000 a year to attend, when right in the same city is Arizona State, a public school with much cheaper tuition and a much, much better reputation?

So basically, only people who can't get into ASU go to this reject law school. There's really no other reason you would attend this school instead of ASU unless you got a full-ride scholarship.

Seriously, PSL accepts EVERYONE - even people who get like, 140 on their LSAT! Being a lawyer is really difficult. I got a pretty good LSAT score and find myself decently intelligent, and seriously, it is really really difficult to practice law. You have to be pretty darn smart. So good luck to all the 140ers in their law careers.

I know, this post is mean, but I really don't think this school should exist.

Well, consider this: plenty of people at the T14 probably consider ASU to be a "reject" school, and wouldn't give an ASU grad the time of day. How many ASU students' first choice was the University of Arizona, but they didn't get accepted? I have no doubt that ASU is a fine school, but my point is that it's all relative.

Law schools like Arizona Summit exist for the reason you stated: not everyone is going to get accepted to ASU, or can quit their job for three years, or wants to work at a big firm. For those people a school like Arizona Summit might make perfect sense.

As for the cost, I think pretty much all law schools are overpriced and Arizona Summit's high tuition is comparable to other law schools. It's a legitimate criticism.

Seriously, PSL accepts EVERYONE - even people who get like, 140 on their LSAT! Being a lawyer is really difficult. I got a pretty good LSAT score and find myself decently intelligent, and seriously, it is really really difficult to practice law. You have to be pretty darn smart. So good luck to all the 140ers in their law careers.

And yet Arizona Summit's bar pass rate and employment statistics are roughly comparable to ASU. Yes, ASU is better in both categories, but not dramatically so. Regardless of what someone gets on the LSAT, if they can pass the bar they are probably smart enough to be a lawyer.

My guess is that ASU and Arizona Summit are probably filling different niches. ASU (and UA) are probably supplying most of the big firm/federal/DA etc. jobs, and Arizona Summit is probably producing small firm lawyers, PDs, solo practitioners, etc.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: January 06, 2015, 03:28:02 PM »
Do you think that a 3.0 will damage my chances at a 1L summer job and job down the road given how much emphasis is placed on the 1L grades?

Well, that question is subject to a number of variables. To a large extent it depends on what your goals are. If you have a 3.0 from Harvard, then no worries. If you have a 3.0 from Whittier, however, and are trying to get a prestigious and highly competitive federal internship, then it may be more difficult. Without knowing what your goals are it's hard to say.

As far as post-law school employment, again it depends. Big firms with 500+ lawyers and some federal agencies are going to be far more competitive than the local public defender's office (although those are probably more competitive than you think!). If the goal is a small firm doing family law and DUIs, it will be less of an issue.

Also while I have you here, I can't afford to do an unpaid full time internship, so if I don't get a paid internship or a part-time unpaid internship, would it be devastating for me to just work for a company I worked for in undergrad?

I don't know what the market is like where you live, but I can tell you that here in California paid internships are very competitive. The majority of students get unpaid internships. Sadly, firms and government agencies have figured out that there is a huge pool of talent willing to work for free.

I worked at a government office when I was in law school and we only budgeted for a small number of our internships to be paid. Obviously, the competition for those positions was especially high.

If you have to work at a non-legal job during the summer, so be it. However, it is imperative that you get some solid, marketable legal experience before you start looking for a job as a lawyer. The job market is very tight, and employers will be flooded with applicants who have experience. Those without experience will be at a serious disadvantage. Again, the caveat might be if you are graduating from a school with a huge reputation and you can simply rely on pedigree (Harvard, Yale, etc).

Otherwise you better have something else that the employer wants, namely experience.

Current Law Students / Re: 1L First Semester Grades
« on: January 06, 2015, 12:19:12 PM »
To some extent it depends on the curve at your school, but generally that's not bad at all. In fact, it's good.

I think most people come into law school with high grades from college and expect that it will simply be repeated in law school. As you've already discovered, law school is much more difficult than undergrad and grades are generally lower. At my school the curve was brutal, and a GPA above 3.0 probably would have placed you in the top 15%. 

Both Jonlevy and Citylaw make very good points.

I agree with Jonlevy that it's a Catch-22. Until online schools can attract better students they will have low bar pass rates, but until they get ABA accreditation they won't be able t attract the students they really need.

I've said this before, but online schools are going to have to meet the ABA at least half way if they want to earn accreditation. It's not enough to complain that the ABA is unfair or behind the times, or whatever. The online law schools will have to show that they are committed to meeting ABA standards by getting more students to pass the bar. This probably requires amending their own standards to include the LSAT, an undergrad degree, maybe even some kind of specialized test to see if someone can handle the rigors of an online degree. Until then, I don't think anything will change.

So what's the latest news on online law school applying for ABA accreditation? Has any of these online law schools lately applied for ABA approval and what ones? A link would be helpful if you can provide one. Thanks.

My understanding is that the current ABA rules don't allow for purely online programs to apply for accreditation. The ABA would have to change it's rules first, then an online school could apply.

Even if the rules change however, the problem online schools will face is bar passage rates. The ABA requires a school's first time pass rate to be within 15 points of the state's ABA average. In most states this means an online school would have to achieve a 60-70% first time pass rate, minimum. Right now, I don't any online schools are above 35%. That is a TALL order.


Take a look at the admissions information available on LSAC's "Official Guide to U.S. Law Schools". It will give you a very good indication as to your chances.

That said, with a 141 LSAT you stand a statistically very low (perhaps nonexistent) chance at USD and CW, maybe marginally better at TJ. You can go ahead and apply, but I see a retake in your future.

Try to identify the specific reasons that you had trouble this time, and focus on fixing them.

Good Luck!

Online Law Schools / Re: Baby bar test scores
« on: December 23, 2014, 11:08:10 AM »
For the purposes of law school, regional accreditation is sort of irrelevant. The only accreditations that matter are those from the ABA or a state bar. The vast majority of lawyers (employers) will view an online degree as "unaccredited", even though it is technically accredited. Maybe one advantage is that you can get federal student loans if the institution is regionally accredited?

Personally, if I were considering the online/correspondence route I'd look at 1) cost, and 2) bar pass rates. Most employers will frankly be skeptical of any online program, period.

As Citylaw said, online programs can be the right choice for the right student. The decision requires a realistic assessment of the applicant's goals, and where they want to live. For some people, it's the only chance at obtaining a JD, and can be a good choice.

Online Law Schools / Re: Baby bar test scores
« on: December 22, 2014, 04:38:50 PM »
Yeah, I understand your point. I'm just thinking back to a couple of people I knew in law school who struggled, got barely passing grades, and never passed the bar. They may have been better off getting a serious reality check early on and saving two year's tuition.

Funny thing is, some of my classmates who had a hard time came in with good grades and LSAT scores. They just had a very hard time mastering the law school game. Conversely, I knew others who got in by the skin of their teeth, did just fine, passed the bar on their first attempt and are lawyers. It just depends, I guess.

Online Law Schools / Re: Baby bar test scores
« on: December 21, 2014, 09:00:38 PM »
Kind of scary how of the ABA approved law students who took it (by choice I guess) almost none passed it
Then again its doing it just for poops, I guess one would take it less seriously ?

No, ABA takers are those who earned a below passing GPA after their first year and are required to take the FYLSX as a condition of reinstatement.

Personally, I think everyone should probably be required to take the Baby Bar. It would weed out a few people who won't be able to pass the bar, and save them tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars. 

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