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Messages - remiz22

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61
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Recruiting at Florida Schools
« on: March 05, 2008, 10:56:25 PM »
It's amazing to me how many people want to act like they know more than a guy who gets his information from a reputable source.   You haven't even been to law school yet and you know all about how these firms recruit.  Give me a break.  Learn that you don't have to argue about everything.  Recruiting from top 25% doesn't mean they hire every single student in the top 25%.  I had a senior partner at a large firm in Houston tell me they recruit from top half of Texas, top 1/3 of UH, and top 1/3 of SMU.  Now if they hired every single student that they were "recruiting" their associate class would be bigger than the firm.  Think a little bit more before you just argue to argue. 

1) How is an anonymous posters anecdote from his uncle more reputable than an analysis using empirical data?

2) Although it is more likely that they go into the top 25%, local BigLaw can go deeper into SMU and UH because there are more BigLaw associate positions in Texas than there are in Florida. Not to mention the fact that Texas doesn't face the influx of non-local lawyers who are attracted to the Sunshine state, thus further flooding the market.

62
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Recruiting at Florida Schools
« on: March 05, 2008, 10:45:57 PM »

OP said Florida V100 firms recruit into the top 25% at UF. The top 25% at UF equals approx. 115 students. There are less than 50 associate spots each year at the V100 firms in the entire state of Florida.


I don't think anyone here is necessarily talking about V100 firms. That is where the confusion seems to be coming from. They are talking (or at least I am) about firms paying market rate for Florida. If you mean strictly firms listed in the V100 it's true that there aren't as many and your argument is a lot stronger. But there are a ton of firms in the state on the link I posted that are reputable and pay top dollar.

I still think one of the most important factors is self selection, and (the part I think you misunderstood) the options that the top 10% have will lead them to make other choices apart from Florida big law. They will disperse into other cities or types of legal practice, leaving room for lower ranked people to grab these spots.

Your numerical argument ignored this and took for granted that everyone in the top 10 or 25 percent was seeking these jobs.

1) 83% of UF grads are employed in-state. It is a regional school with local placement, even for the top 10%. This is evidenced by the dearth of UF grads at BigLaw firms outside the state of Florida.

2) Even if you add in the tiny handful of non-V100 firms that pay true market BigLaw rates, the math still does not work. With such a limited number of BigLaw jobs, and the reality that 83% of the class is staying in-state, it is absurd to contend that 115 students (the top 25%) at UF alone will have a serious shot a BigLaw.

3) There is no evidence to support, nor does common sense support, the idea that the top 25% would not be vying for the highest paying jobs.

63
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Recruiting at Florida Schools
« on: March 05, 2008, 04:01:00 PM »
anybody have a link to UF's employment stats? Ive gotten to it several times in the past but I guess they must have moved it around on their site.

74.2% employed at graduation
Median private sector salary is $72,000 (56% reporting)

64
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Recruiting at Florida Schools
« on: March 05, 2008, 03:55:50 PM »


Again, the OP did not mean all of the top 25% at UF gets Holland and Knight. That would be ridiculous. He meant that Holland will hire out of the top 25%. There is a big difference. If they like somebody that is top 20% more than somebody who is top 10%, then they will hire the top 20% student. That's not a crazy idea. Or maybe people in the top 10% turned them down, so then they would move beyond the top 10%. The point is that it's POSSIBLE to get Holland from the top 25%.

OK. I agree it is POSSIBLE. I also think it is possible for FSU and Miami.

65
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Recruiting at Florida Schools
« on: March 05, 2008, 03:53:46 PM »




Oh my goodness. I can't follow which position you are arguing.

OP said Florida V100 firms recruit into the top 25% at UF. The top 25% at UF equals approx. 115 students. There are less than 50 associate spots each year at the V100 firms in the entire state of Florida.

The basic argument against these hard facts is a collection of anecdotal stories.

Thats not what I said. I referenced one firm in the V100.

If it's not the norm, then why post? It seems odd to start a thread to inform propsectives about an uncommon hiring practice.

66
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Recruiting at Florida Schools
« on: March 05, 2008, 03:41:55 PM »
It isn't a secret that UF places best in Florida, but probably not 2.5x as well. (I have no figures that suggest more than 5-8% over FSU)

Botbot, I agree that UF probably (definitely) does not place 2.5x as well as FSU. But that's for the overall market. The OP was only speaking of one firm (probably Holland and Knight). Holland and Knight is FILLED with UF grads as compared to FSU grads. That firm has very strong UF ties, and I wouldn't be surprised if Holland favors UF grads considerably more than FSU grads.

It wouldn't matter even if Holland and Knight was composed entirely of UF grads. That's not the point.

It's about how many associate positions they fill each year in the state. Because they have a select number of positions, and because there are so many law students wanting these jobs, Holland and Knight is not normally going past the top 10% at any school in the state.

67
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Recruiting at Florida Schools
« on: March 05, 2008, 03:34:45 PM »


The BigLaw market in Florida, let alone the V100 market, is relatively small. Even if your uncle recruits ALL his new hires from UF, there are not enough positions for them to be routinely taking candidates outside the top 10%.


There are several big law firms in Fl. At UF there are around 400 students in each graduating class, that leaves the top 10 percent at around 40 students.

There are a lot more than 40 firms paying the Florida market rate.

http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insider/payscale.tcl?state=FL

Not all of those 40 grads will want to work in this type of firm, some may want public interest, smaller firms, family firms, boutique firms etc. Some may be lucky enough to get Atlanta Big Law, or may just take an out of state job. Their rank provides them with more portability.

Lets say 30 of these grads are actually gunning for these positions at top Florida firms. Well, that doesn't even leave enough room for 1 grad at each of these firms. Granted some of the firms on the list may be more sought after than others, and other variable details exist.

But my point is, there is plenty of room for firms to be hiring from the top 25 percentile at UF.

Oh my goodness. I can't follow which position you are arguing.

OP said Florida V100 firms recruit into the top 25% at UF. The top 25% at UF equals approx. 115 students. There are less than 50 associate spots each year at the V100 firms in the entire state of Florida.

The basic argument against these hard facts is a collection of anecdotal stories.

68
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Recruiting at Florida Schools
« on: March 05, 2008, 03:34:05 PM »

No doubt. UF grads are very well represented in Florida BigLaw. My point has more to do with the dearth of BigLaw spots being created (or opening up) each year, especially at the limited number of V100 firm offices in Florida. I don't doubt that the local BigLaw that hires in fact does a large amount of that hiring at UF. But there are simply not enough BigLaw jobs to allow the V100 firms to go into the top 25%. Because the spots are so limited, they are generally going to choose from the top 10%.

Source please?

Florida has a notoriously weak BigLaw market, one which has relatively little growth at the associate level.

Only 2 of the 100 firms in the V100 are based in FL. This is a very low number for a state as wealthy and populous as Florida.

From what I have researched, an additional 4 of the V100 firms have satellite offices in Florida. Foley and Larnder has 27 associates in the entire state of Florida. McGuire Woods has 15 associates in the entire state. Baker and Hostetler has 23 associates in the entire state. Dewey and LeBoeuf has 4 associates in the entire state. At most, these V100 firms have been hiring 2-5 associates per year. 

Letís say the top 10% at FSU and Miami compete for the V100 jobs in Florida. That would mean 20 students from FSU and 41 students for Miami. If we take your assertion that the top 25% at UF competes for V100 jobs, that adds another 112 students.

So we have 173 students potentially competing for these limited number of jobs just from these three schools alone. This numbers does not count T25 school applicants applying for these jobs from out-of-state nor does it include the very best students from the other lower-ranked law schools in Florida. Letís be unrealistic and assume half of the students from the Big 3 donít apply for the best jobs. That still leaves 85 students competing for less than half that number of V100 positions available.

There just aren't enough V100 jobs to allow for going beyond the top 10% at UF.

69
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Recruiting at Florida Schools
« on: March 05, 2008, 01:42:39 PM »

No doubt. UF grads are very well represented in Florida BigLaw. My point has more to do with the dearth of BigLaw spots being created (or opening up) each year, especially at the limited number of V100 firm offices in Florida. I don't doubt that the local BigLaw that hires in fact does a large amount of that hiring at UF. But there are simply not enough BigLaw jobs to allow the V100 firms to go into the top 25%. Because the spots are so limited, they are generally going to choose from the top 10%.

Source please?

Florida has a notoriously weak BigLaw market, one which has relatively little growth at the associate level.

Only 2 of the 100 firms in the V100 are based in FL. This is a very low number for a state as wealthy and populous as Florida.

From what I have researched, an additional 4 of the V100 firms have satellite offices in Florida. Foley and Larnder has 27 associates in the entire state of Florida. McGuire Woods has 15 associates in the entire state. Baker and Hostetler has 23 associates in the entire state. Dewey and LeBoeuf has 4 associates in the entire state. At most, these V100 firms have been hiring 2-5 associates per year. 

Letís say the top 10% at FSU and Miami compete for the V100 jobs in Florida. That would mean 20 students from FSU and 41 students for Miami. If we take your assertion that the top 25% at UF competes for V100 jobs, that adds another 112 students.

So we have 173 students potentially competing for these limited number of jobs just from these three schools alone. This numbers does not count T25 school applicants applying for these jobs from out-of-state nor does it include the very best students from the other lower-ranked law schools in Florida. Letís be unrealistic and assume half of the students from the Big 3 donít apply for the best jobs. That still leaves 85 students competing for less than half that number of V100 positions available.

There just aren't enough V100 jobs to allow for going beyond the top 10% at UF.

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