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Messages - Miami88
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« on: August 03, 2014, 07:05:49 PM »
1) 160-170 is a HUGE range. Really, this is the difference between schools ranked in the Top 10 and around 50ish. University of Florida is not the same as UMichigan.
I would recommend spending some time messing with http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-content/uploads/Law-School-Predictor-Full-Time-Programs.htm
as well as
This is where the predictor grabs its data fyi.
All that said,
If you end up with a 3.0 and a 160, you are in okay shape for schools ranked between 50-100 and in good shape for schools outside the top 100. If you end up with a 170, you are looking at Top 50 schools.
Note on ranking
Don't get worried about its hype. The reality is the strong majority of schools outside of the Top20 have pretty similar employment figures. Between T14 and T100, there are surely differences, but no the same as T6 v. sub-T100 schools. In other words, for the schools you would be considering, ranking plays a relatively small role in your end career. The big factor that will drive your employment (and, lets face it, that is the whole point for law school) out of these schools will be the particular school's regional pull. Therefore, apply to as many schools in the region you hope to live and work in after law school.
« on: August 01, 2014, 10:10:05 AM »
170-175 LSAT is not easy. Seriously. I'll assume in the below that you get there, but understand that even assuming you are actually capable (not being mean, just realistic), it will still take a ton of work and effort to get there. Way more than you will ever expect. So, if you really think you can make it there, prepare to practice the LSAT BIG time - like part-time job (if not full time job) worth of preparation.
IP would be great. Know that you need to have advanced degrees in science. I'm not sure of the specific requirements to sit for the Patent Bar (there is a specific licensure you need to actually practice Patent Law), but I believe to be somewhat competitive in this field you need a Ph.D. (not just masters, and certainly more than a Bachelors). Good, qualified IP (specifically Patent Law) lawyers are rare and, if you hustle, can be quite lucrative. It is extremely niche, however, and will thus require exceptional entrepreneurship.
In genearl, about 66-75% of a law school's decision is simply placed on your GPA and LSAT. These are your hard factors (factors that are firm and measurable). If both of these are at or above a school's median, you have a legitimate shot. If you are an underrepresented minority (URM) AND you are at least within the average band (25-75th percentile), then you have a legitimate shot. Other factors, like work experience, your application essays, your undergraduate major, etc., are considered soft factors and play a relatively small role in the decision (about 25-33%, if that). These factors are more so tie breakers than decision makers. Strong softs might push you over the edge if your hard factors are borderline, but they will not make up for relatively poor hard factors.
The sorta-negative (not really negative, just more realistic)...
Assuming you are not a URM, the issue you will be facing is that of your GPA (and even if you are a URM really). If you do indeed score in the 170-175 range, then your LSAT is within range of the very top schools (Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, etc.), however (big however), your GPA will place you far far below their average band. This scenario is referred to as a splitter (above median LSAT, below median GPA). The likelihood of getting into these schools as a non-URM splitter - even with really strong softs - are slim. You might be able to sneak into a lower T-14 (T-14 refers to the US News Top 14 ranked schools, generally considered the elite national schools), but I wouldn't count on it.
The positive (yay!)
Your best bet would be to apply to schools relatively lower ranked schools (fyi - there is nothing wrong at all with these schools, but not all schools can be Harvard, ya know). Again, assuming you do indeed score in the LSAT range you are looking for, you will be a shoe-in for serious scholarships at these schools. You will probably get full tuition scholarships from several. Understand that Big Law is extremely limited if not impossible for grads coming from these schools. Your best bet would be a small law firm specializing in IP Patent Law.
I would specifically apply to lower ranked schools in the region you wish to work in. A law school's employment prospects become more and more regional the lower in rank it is. For example, where a degree from Harvard (ranked 2nd) can legitametly help you get a job almost anywhere in the US, Vanderbilt (16th) will be more so confined to the South. University of Florida (50ish) will be more so confined to Florida, University of Miami (75ish?) will be confined to Southern Florida, and FIU (100) to Miami in specific.
So... rock the LSAT, apply to all the T14 schools (you never know!) and any school in the region(s) you want to work in, and take the least expensive option.
« on: July 31, 2014, 06:30:22 PM »
Quick answer - from my gut - USD. They are comparable in employment stats and USD will end up being far cheaper.
You have to assume the worst case scenario when it comes to law school. Of course, work you butt off to get the best case scenario, but PLAN for the worst case. If you assume you will lose that pepperdine scholarship come your second and third year, and you take into account tuition increases, and you take into account interest on your loans (as they will not be subsidized during school), and assuming you don't incur any additional costs (which you will), and assuming you won't have any other sources of aid ..... then, by the time you graduate, your debt will look sorta like...
If the costs were the same, sure, I would say go for Pepperdine, but they are by no means the same. Pepperdine is not a Harvard, these two schools offer comparable employment and prestige. If it were me, I would go for USD in a heartbeat.
« on: July 29, 2014, 11:08:48 PM »
In all seriousness, your law school decision should be based on where you want to live. This is especially the case given your GPA and LSAT. The schools you are looking at are going to be more regional than national. This means that where you go to school is more than likely where you will be working afterwards. If living in a warmer climate is a must for you post law school, then you should definitely look for school there.
In Florida you are looking at UMiami, FIU, UF, FSU and a few others. Your LSAT is great, but your GPA makes you a splitter.. someone who has a LSAT above a school's median but GPA below the school's median. There are other schools like St. Thomas, Nova, and Ave Maria that would probably offer you a lot of $$ to get you (they will look at you as a way to boost their LSAT avg.)
Any specific questions?
« on: July 29, 2014, 11:03:54 PM »
« on: July 28, 2014, 10:33:41 PM »
I think most people - including me - on this forum would support a decision of taking a "lower ranked" school at a lower cost than a relatively more prestigous one at a higher one.
Also, my overview was just that, a generalization. Just because you go to a "lower ranked" school doesn't mean you will have a hard (or even harder) time finding work. You just need to understand that, if you aren't in the top of your class and are attending a school outside the T6, big law may not be a safe bet. There are plenty of people who graduate from lower ranked schools and are fully employed. Big Law is just one sector of the work force, and one that several lawyers get burned out in. In fact, the strong majority of lawyers out there didn't attend a Top 6 school and don't work at those firms. Again, you just need to get realistic and forceful with your job search. As Citylaw says, outside the very top law schools, finding work is far more dependent on YOU rather than the school on your resume. And even for top law school grads, they still need to work their butt off to find the work, the doors will just be a little easier to open.. that's all.
A few things to keep in mind in your decision when it comes to debt and picking a lower ranked school...
1) Look at the total cost of attendance, not just tuition Also, for public schools, check out the difference in cost for in state tuition and, if you aren't a resident, what it takes to bbecome one.
2) Deduct from the total cost of attendance your scholarship. These are the numbers you need to compare. You might get $100k from school A and $50k from school B. But if A's COA is $250k and school B is $100k, that makes the effective COA for each school respectively $150k and $50. Therefore, school B is the better option from a money perspective even though they gave you far less in scholarship.
3) Figure out what conditions, if any, the school has on your scholarship. Some schools, particularly the top schools, just require that you don't flunk out of college. Other schools require that you maintain a particular GPA. A 3.0 might not sound that bad, but also find out what percentage of students that is associated with. It might be that 80% of the class has a 3.0 or better, which isn't that bad. However, if a 3.0 is like, the 90th percentile, then you have to keep in mind that you might very well lose that scholarship come your second and/or third year.
4) Do take into account employment statistics both in general and, more importantly, in the region you want to work in. Going into $30k of debt for a school in Seatle v. $60k for a school in Miami might sound like a no brainer, but if you want to practice in Miami, you will be facing a very steep journey coming out of Seatle.
5) Make a decision on your own personal circumstances. No one on here can tell you X Debt for Y School is worth it or not. We are not in your shoes. Maybe you are 50 y.o. and have 3 kids... maybe you are 20 y.o. with $0 debt as is. Maybe your entire childhood was a mess because of debt issues. Maybe your family is loaded. Who knows. You need to decide for yourself if something is or is not worth it.
« on: July 26, 2014, 05:58:26 PM »
Check out: http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-four-tiers-t13-trap-no-name-and-joke.htmlhttp://www.law-school-hacker.com/top-ranked-law-schools.html
For detailed data as to the above info and why they are saying that, take some time to check outhttp://www.lawschooltransparency.com
In terms of employment prospects, you can ROUGHLY
view the US News rankings as the following
T3 - Yale, Harvard, Stanford
These schools offer you as close of a "guarantee" for a job post graduation as you can possibly get. You will have the best chances to get most any job in almost any region and the strongest shot for big name Fed. Clerkships. This is NOT 100%, but as close to it as you can get.
T6 - Columbia, UChicago, NYU
As strong as T3 for employment minus the Fed. Clerkship boost.
T14 - The rest of the T14
A significant notch below T6 employment stats with not that great Fed. Clerkship prospects (i.e. you will need to be at the top 10-20% of your class for a shot at a fed. clerkships). These schools also tend to lean their employment to broad regions (i.e. The Mid West, The South, the east coast, etc), however, if you have connections to another region (ie your undergrad's city or your hometown), you probably have a good shot at landing a job there. You prob. will have little to no issue finding work in a small to medium sized law firm no matter your class ranking (assuming you don't completely fail).
"Honorable Mentions" - Vandy, UCLA, etc.
A big notch below T14 but these schools have ok prospects for big law in the school's same city. Very
good chances for small to medium sized law firms within the school's general region (state).
T14 - 120ish
For the most part, basically everyone (all 100+ schools) here are in the same/similar boat as far as employment stats are concerned. Sure, if you are at the top of your class at a top 30 school, you will prob. have a stronger shot at better paying work in your immediate region, but that's about it. Your best chances here (in general) at landing jobs are in the school's immediate region (i.e. same state for the higher ranked schools to the same county/city for lower ranked schools). Very difficult - if not near impossible - for big law, and fat chance for fed. clerkship. Good to okay
chances for small/medium sized law firms.
Sub T120 - Some ranked and all unranked schools
Beware. Unless you have family connections for a small law firm, you may face an uphill battle for jobs. Your best bet will be to open up your own practice. Get creative, network, and work your butt off. You should do the prior no matter what school you go to, but even more so here.
That is an immense oversimplification and generalization of US Rankings. You shouldn't base a decision on the above. The above is just a simplified view of employment stats. Although employment stats have gotten much more transparent over the past few years, they are far from perfect. Just because you get into a T14 school, it doesn't mean you will get w/e job wherever you want it. Likewise, just because you go to an unranked school, it doesn't mean you will never get a job.
The general take away is this... the lower in rank a school gets, the more region specific it becomes. Further, the lower in rank a school is, debt becomes more and more of an issue. i.e. Going into $120k of debt for Harvard and wanting to get a job in New York might be worth it. However, going into $120k of debt for the University of Puerto Rico and wanting a job in Chicago probably is not.
So.. you should base your decision on attending a law school on 1) where you want to live afterwards, 2) the debt you will face, 3) your feelings about the particular law school, and 4) as a tie breaker, refer to ranking.
« on: July 25, 2014, 07:45:13 AM »
OP has a full scholarship already at Ave Maria.
I misspoke, Citylaw is right... FIU and FSU both have about the same cost of attendance (assuming no or similar scholarships at both). They are each about $40k per year (20k for tuition and 20k for living).
assuming you are paying for your cost of living at all three places, you would save about $40k by staying at Ave Maria. That is not an insignificant number, but you need to figure out if FSU and FIU's benefits are worth it.
I agree with Citylaw, you shouldn't base your decision here solely on ranking. I mean, if everything was equal financially and you were going into this as a 1L and you could care less where you worked after and you had similarly strong vibes about each school, you could then use ranking as a good tie breaker. The reality is you would probably have a little easier time finding work coming out of FSU than Ave Maria in a general sense. However, those aren't your circumstances. I would transfer, again, if you have a strong desire to work in another schools specific region. If you want to work in Portland, however, each of these schools are going to be equally good and equally bad at helping you get a job there, so I would say go to the cheapest.
I guess what I'm saying is, we need more info.
« on: July 24, 2014, 05:49:41 PM »
Where do you want to practice and in what capacity?
If you are planning to have your own practice in Naples, then I would just stay at Ave Maria. Anything else and I would recommend strongly considering the transfer.
I personally really like FIU. They have competitive employment prospects and for a fraction of the cost compared to FSU. FIU is also picking up traction. My hunch is they will be in the Top 50 within the next 10 years or so.
If you are dead set to work anywhere in North Florida or even in the South, I would say FSU. If you want to work in South Florida (other than the Naples area), I would say FIU. And if you are not sure of your future but want the best bang for your buck, I would also say FIU.
But those are just my gut reactions to a very general question. You need to think long and hard about your realistic goals and future needs. I would also recommend calling the schools up and speaking to them candidly about whatever your situation is. They may be able to shed light on the decision that we might not be able to.
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