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Messages - loki13

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Distance Education Law Schools / Re: taft law school
« on: August 11, 2015, 02:02:38 PM »

First, if the answer is Orly Taitz, I suggest re-examining your question.

Of course, if you want to be a dentist, you can always do the non-ABA route. That is not at issue. That said, your last post conflate pro hac status and pro se status with admissions to a specific bar. Once you get admission to a state bar (such as California), there are different rules regarding pro hac, and, of course, a person can always represent themselves.

I would avoid your advice regarding UPL. It's pretty simply- if you're going to be practicing law in a state, you should be admitted to practice in that state.

"But putting our jealousy aside for a moment, what is the actual substantive difference?"

First, never discount jealousy.

Second, the loss of an essay is important.

Third, I think the PTs are kind of awesome. Having taken more than one Bar, I appreciated the PTs. I understand that others mileage may vary, but broken down, it allows for three separate tests-
- A general, multi-guess test of idealized legal knowledge that doesn't really exist anywhere.
- A specific essay exam that tests application of learned knowledge to specific jurisdiction rules.
- The PTs, which test a person's learned ability and innate ability to apply new rules to new facts.

You say the PTs are useless- I say the PTs measure the one thing lawyers do the most often.

Now, maybe I'm wrong (it does happen). But I liked them- I guess we'll find out when we start examining the scores of those, um, 2 day attorneys.

Distance Education Law Schools / Re: taft law school
« on: August 11, 2015, 12:43:59 PM »
Wow, that escalated quickly.

First, I would like to say that I appreciated the links to the Fed. Ct. admissions. It's nice to see it collected in one place. So thank you to Jon Levy / Legalpractioner (I'll call you LP).

That said, this is true, and misleading. Allow me to explain. Imagine this scenario- someone passes online, wants to practice in Florida. They can't. They have a vague idea that federal practice will be allowed, provided they "pass a bar." They know they can pass California. So, they do (which is something, but we'll get to that).

Now, ignoring the fact that N.D. Fla. is about to change their rules to bring them into conformity with S.D. and M.D. Fla, let's assume they get in immediately to N.D. Fla. Here's the thing though- we are all aware of the federal jurisdiction case (state bars can't control it), but it would be almost impossible to-
1. Get hired by a firm with only a N.D. Fla. bar.
2. Practice law in Florida with only a N.D. Fla. bar.
3. Not get a ULP charge.

All of this is to say- it's incredibly hard. Is it doable? Well, anything can be doable. But if I was investing in online, I would expect to practice in a jurisdiction that explicitly allowed for it. Period. And then look into reciprocity. Maybe this will change- but I wouldn't bet on it.

Assuming you will be doing federal practice only ... um, yeah. And given the patchwork of admissions requirements.... (and don't get me started on the "But you can get a Supreme Court bar membership!" that and 4 bucks will get you coffee at Starbucks.)

Distance Education Law Schools / Re: taft law school
« on: August 09, 2015, 10:20:20 AM »
"You are mistaken on federal practice.  A number of federal district courts (not all) allow any bar member to join,"

I was uncertain on this, so I looked into this in response to a query in another thread. Every single D.C. I looked at in a brief sample required licensure in the state in which the D.C. was located, or, on occasion, a neighboring state. I did not find a single D.C. in my limited search would allow for "any bar member" to join. I highly recommend doing a thorough search prior to accepting this advice. Short version- I belive this to be wrong, unless you have a very generous definition of "a number."

I do agree that there are other federal bars, including the Supreme Court and the COAs that you can get admitted to by bootstrapping, say, a CalBar admittance- but you should also note that CalBar has really, really, really bad reciprocity.

News Discussion / Re: POTUS
« on: August 08, 2015, 03:04:18 PM »
"The investigation into Hillary means jack."

Yep. On that we're in complete agreement. Not sure what cinnamon is smokin', but I hope it's legal in her/his jurisdiction.

Or look up Whitewater. Or Vince Foster. Or Hillarycare. Or Benghazi. Or ... well, google it.

"If they think a law school scams for not asking questions try a credit card company, bank, car salesman, broker etc."

I know I'm old fashioned, but I have four bizarre beliefs-

1. The first is that people, in general, should be honorable. And that regardless of your profession, you should not be trying to scam money out of the gullible that may not be asking questions, and you should not try and predicate your business model on other people's failures.

2. The second is that academic institutions should have slightly higher standards than, say, a typical used car lot.

3. The third is that the legal profession, itself, should be an honorable one, and that law schools should inculcate those values. They shouldn't exist to scam students and throw them into an environment where students are taught that cheating and scamming is a virtue.

4. Finally, I believe that as a practicing attorney, I have a certain duty to warn those who come after me. That I shouldn't be giving out false information, and that I should warn students of the possible problems of the worst schools. Instead of obfuscating the issues and placing those problems back on them with a sunny, "Everyone can do it if you just want it badly enough!"

" If Cooley is the only school they got into they had better realize that it will be an uphill battle."

As has been shown in various court cases, certain schools have preyed upon these unrealistic expectations. Most schools have published unrealistic, misleading, and false employment statistics. Other schools make it very hard to get an accurate assessment of the difficulty of, say, maintaining a scholarship or even staying in school, as most students are not aware of the differences between undergrad and a forced class rank with a curve.

As a supporter of free markets, I don't have an issue with the Cooleys and the Coastals of the world- if people want to take on that debt for a lottery ticket, or believe they can do it, that is their decision. What I do take issue with is when people (like you) minimize the risks, or don't acknowledge that these schools have an actual business plan than involved screwing over some of their students- sorry, admitting students that will likely not succeed, and not giving them any recourse when they fail out, and planning for that. Oh, and issuing scholarships with the knowledge that a significant portion of the student body will be unable to keep them. You know, little things like that.

My shorter version is- if your answer is the Cooleys and the Coastals of the world, you should make sure that you have asked the right question.

"In summary does Florida Coastal plan on the students failing out, transferring, simply leaving etc? Of course, but they don't want it to happen."

OMG. Seriously. If they are planning on it, and they set the curve so that it will happen, and they (unlike other schools) don't have a process to let these students back in, and they don't have the facilities to let these students continue...

Then yes, they do want it to happen. It is their business model. They deliberately let in unqualified students, knowing that they will get tuition money for a year, and don't have to worry about their bar passage rates.

"All businesses plan for revenue losses as they should, but no business wants to lose revenue."

Do you not understand? They would lose revenue if they had to hire more teachers, get larger facilities, and worry about ABA accreditation problems ... in fact, because of the change in the legal landscape, they are currently worrying about ABA accreditation.

I honestly don't understand why you defend the worst of the worst. I know people that have gone to Fla. Coastal and have become fine attorneys, but I can't condone the business model of schools like this. They prey on information asymmetry. The people I know who went to Fla. Coastal and succeeded would have succeeded at other schools, and I've heard a lot of horror stories. (And we happen to be picking on Coastal- this applies to a few other schools as well.)

"Since you seem so adamant against this may I ask what a school gains by dismissing a student? Why would a school want that to happen?"

Because they *already have this planned out in their business model.* Just try and think about this for a second. Schools plan based on yields of students- for all their classes. This means that they (in this case, Florida Coastal) expect, *expect* that-
1. A certain small percentage of their students will do well enough to get the heck out.
2. That a large number of the partial (or even full!) scholarships that they gave out will not be renewed based upon unrealistic class ranks. So students will have a difficult decision. They expect, based upon the past, that the majority of these students will take on student loans to continue, and a minority will drop out.
3. That a certain percentage will simply fail out. Moreover, they expect (based on past years) that these students are less likely to be the scholarship students.

Now, why do they need all these students to leave? Because they don't have enough teachers for the upper level classes (or didn't, until admission cratered the last two years). In other words, this is all part of the business model. Moreover, they understood this, because they are required to maintain a certain bar passage rate- admitting terrible students allows them to get a full year tuition from them in cattle-call 1L classes from them, without worrying terribly about their bar passage rates.

This is so basic I have trouble understanding your lack of understanding.

Finally, anyone who goes to a school like this assuming they will transfer is taking a huge, huge risk. Because if something bad happens, you don't get to go to UF, or FSU, and pay 1/3 the tuition. You end up paying Harvard prices for a Florida Coastal degree, that doesn't give you a great shot at passing the Florida bar, and barely ranks among the top 10 degrees... in the state of Florida.

News Discussion / Re: POTUS
« on: August 06, 2015, 09:49:35 AM »
"I honestly expect him to lose the primary and then run (half assed) as third party just to push his way into debates the way Ross Perot did."

Interesting point. I should have added that as a betting option. That would be a disaster for the GOP, because even if he peels away a small amount of the vote... I imagine there would be a lot of pressure on him not to run as a third party candidate, but he does have a Trump-sized ego.

"but the real money should be on hillary clintons fate and outcome?"

Betting markets currently have her at between 1:4 to 1:7; in contrast to Sanders who is at approximately 10:1. You might want to think about that. If it helps, Clinton currently is in better condition (in terms of endorsements, money raised relative to the field, and other markers) than any non-incumbent Democratic nominee, ever. I'm not a Clinton fan, but saying she is in worse shape than the clown car that is the GOP field is, well, interesting.

"Think of how much more Donald will make after a run at the presidency."

While running is lucrative for the crazies, like Santorum, because it helps their brand (speaking fees, media appearances in the off years), it will certainly cost Trump money both directly during the campaign and afterwards. Businesses aren't big with controversy, and while there will be groups of people that may like him more, his business brand will suffer, as it already is. This is a vanity project- not a rational economic decision. The amount he loses in business opportunities > than the amount he will gain in book sales, speaking fees, etc.

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