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Messages - loki13

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41
Where should I go next fall? / Re: UF 3L - Will Answer Questions
« on: January 08, 2009, 01:37:50 PM »
1. In terms of job placement, if you do really well at Emory, Florida, or Chapel Hill, you can get a job in the location in the SE that you want. It's really that simple. They're all fine schools. None of them (despite the protests of their administrations) are NATIONAL schools. I think that Emory may be slightly better (in terms of overall faculty) but that and four dollars will get you a cuppa joe at starbucks. If you know that you want to practice in a particular legal market (Atl=Emory, Fla=UF, Charlotte=UNC) I would go to that school because of the contacts, otherwise I would base it on tuition. If you just can't choose- Emory is the best option. It has a slightly higher esteem value; but once you get outside of the T14, all the schools are pretty similar until the TTT.

2. UF for JD has some great tax classes due to the crossover with the LLM; you also have the advantage of getting to to know the professors if you choose. Again- there's a huge difference between tax law and accounting, so don't choose a school based on the desirability of the tax program. With the accounting, you might decide to go corporate law instead.

3. Yes and no. There will be problems, and ones that have already come up in terms of faculty hiring and retention. I don't see that having a long-term effect on the law school rankings because the law school has independent sources of funding it can tap and because the overall academic market (in terms of private endowments and state funding for public institutions) iis depressed so while their absolute value might decrease, their relative value will not.

4. First, UF law grads are not paid a premium over other law grads. There is a market rate. There are a number of resources (nalpdirectory) to see starting salaries. As a general rule, the desirability and pay for the Florida markets goes in the following order:
1. Miami
2. Tampa
3. Orlando
4. Jax (this is a DISTANT fourth)

There is some dispute about the relative strengths of Tampa and Orlando- Tampa is more 'old Fla.' and Orlando has been coming on strong, but that is a fair assessment.

I will be working in a NYC market. I believe that Miami follows next-tier salaries. This means that if you get a job in Miami for a BigLaw firm, first year salaries start at 130k (maybe 135?). NY/LA/Houston pay 160. Tampa pays either Miami or below. If you go to a major Florida but non-BL firm you can look for 80-110k as a start salary.

This was as of last summer when I looked; YMMV as the economy changes.

42
Where should I go next fall? / Re: UF 3L - Will Answer Questions
« on: January 07, 2009, 10:48:18 PM »
Wow- so many questions... start with the easy ones (I guess):

1. UF has been in the 40s since I can remember. While there are some internal concerns (mainly dealing with the retention of quality young faculty) that ranking doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon, for better or worse. Expect to get this- a solid regional school (places all the way from Miami to Atlanta... um, DC), the best school in the state (for those with in-state and/or political aspirations) and low tuition. If by some statistical glitch, it comes out at #52 some cycle, heads *will* roll. I just don't see it happening.

2. Classes used to be bifurcated into a Fall/Spring class (~200 each semester). They changed (starting in '06) to a Fall class only, but it swelled to well over 400  because of poor  yield planning by the administration (460 I think). I believe they are looking to reduce to 300 or so for the entering class (~20% reduction). I know they are reducing, but I can't remember the exact figure- it was decided at a meeting last semester, and I can't recall what it was.

As to gwen's questions-

1. The law school operates an administration within the administration. They have to use the main systems (ISIS etc.) but the law school operates differently (different starting dtates, different class times etc.). It makes it more bearable, and I have never had to go to main campus other than to deal with a Research Asst. paycheck and get my GatorID card. Oh, and football.

2. Not sure I understand this question. UF law is a decent mix- a lot of straight through (incl. double gators) and a few non-trads (people who took off time to work). I personally recommend taking off at least a year for travel/work etc., but you wouldn't feel out of place.

3. I did not go to accepted student day.

4. I think UF is a better law school. FSU is also a fine choice. If you cannot stand Gainesville, try something new. But you have a perfect opportunity to view them both for yourself. Sit in on a few UF classes and/or go to some of the law school events (ACS or Federalist speakers).

5. Graduate credits are worth more in the lottery. Law credits are, apparently, magic. Well- perhaps not, but I've never known a person at Levin (UF Law) who wanted tix and did not get them. I've had them each year. And yes, it's been AWESOME!

6. No. Not the stormin' type. Have to start worrying about the character & fitness part of the bar.

43
Law School Applications / Re: Chances at G'Town Scholarship?
« on: January 07, 2009, 11:45:18 AM »
Moisy,

First, my wishes are genuine. I never wish ill upon anyone. I just enjoy my snark (of which I have a vast reservoir). I think that while you have a correct diagnosis of the echo chamber effect of the board, you misunderstand the cause.

Choosing law schools is a fairly simple business. There's a few national schools. Then there's the regional schools. Then there's the local schools. At the top end of the national schools, you will do well just by getting in. At the regional schools, you can do almost anything if you finish top 10% + law review. If you are going to a local school, you options become more limited. Add in to the equation your cost (tuition + COLA - scholarships), your desired location after graduation, your preferred employment (if you want academic track, you really need national school OR regional school + additional degree from national school after JD and clerkship) and your risk profile (going to a national school is higher cost upfront but lower risk, assuming you are willing to take the job to pay off your loans) and it's an easy choice.

That would deprive obsessive 0Ls of the opportunity to endlessly debate the nuances of, say, whether Boston University or Boston College would solve all of their problems. Why bother? Well, partially because it's fun. Mainly because most 0Ls realize they are making a decision that will impact the rest of their lives and they are trying to control a situation over which they have little knowledge and even less control. Despite people like myself who come on and tell you that outside of the general contours (national, regional, local) law schools are basically the same, and choose the one you like and fits you for you needs, every 0L attempts to somehow find the "secret" knowledge. It's how to gain control over the relatively arbitrary process that is your life.

It's kind of like your personal statement. I agonized (agonized) over my personal statement when I was writing it. Truth? 99% of the time, for 99% of the schools, it doesn't matter. But it allows the applicants to feel they have control over this seemingly arbitrary and capricious process. Think of them as the "Door Close" button on the elevator- except for law schools.

Anyway, don't think it gets better. When you start classes, you'll be part of a 1L rumor mill. You'll be in your own insular world. You'll get a lot of misinformation. You'll think to yourself- why don't the 2Ls and 3Ls tell us what the real deal is? And then, later on, you'll realize that the 2Ls and 3Ls were telling you, but the answers were too simple and you weren't listening. So when you're a 2L/3L, be prepared to give advice to 1Ls-- simple things like "the grades aren't released until next semester's classes begin" and then watch them obsessively check for them anyway. It's the circle of life.

44
Law School Applications / Re: Chances at G'Town Scholarship?
« on: January 06, 2009, 06:18:51 PM »
Clarity,

Again, perhaps you miss the point. So, since I guess I forgot that there were people who are taken by such an extreme form of literalism, allow me to state the following:

1. There is a form of humor by which you exaggerate certain points in order to illustrate a larger truth. It is well-known (I thought) that GULC accepted a much larger number of transfer students than any other top tier school. That is what I was alluding to and mocking.

2. As Clarity points out, you should never attend a school assuming you will transfer later. One bad day on your contracts final (UCC, I don't need no steenken' UCC) will ensure that your transfer dreams have become a stay-where-you-are nightmare. Clarity also pointed out that there are some incorrect impressions I made in the section that Clarity quoted. Allow me to correct the following misstatements:
LIE: GULC should pay you to go there as a 1L.
Truth: No amount of money would make going to GULC worth it.

LIE: "Everyone" geso to a crappy TTT lawschool and transfers to GULC as a 2L.
Truth: Everyone is an overstatement; I am certain that Paris Hilton did not go to a TTT and did not transfer to GULC; Paris is too concerned about substance (and not enough with reputation) to attend GULC.

LIE: GULC takes everyone with a pulse.
Truth: In addition to the pulse, you must pay an application fee. So it's pulse + money.

LIE: GULC will waive the pulse requirement if you pay enough money.
Truth: Okay, that one's true.

LIE: GULC is implementing a 4L transfer program where they will allow you to paste Georgetown on your diploma after you've graduated from another school for $1000.
Truth: It will cost at least two grand.

I'm glad we have this cleared up now.

45
Law School Applications / Re: Chances at G'Town Scholarship?
« on: January 06, 2009, 05:04:48 PM »
Let's quickly dispose of this, shall we?

1. I looked quickly at your registration date to determine you were a clueless first semester 1L. I assumed you went to GULC because I do not have the time or desire to read through your drivel and determine what school was unfortunate enough to accept you.

2. To sum up- you've made an a$$ of yourself by calling someone far more knowledgeable about how this whole process works a 0L, you've criticized the substance-less posts here without offering anything of substance yourself, and when called on it you retreat into BS.

Finis. Hope your first grades turn out okay (I'm not being sarcastic; nothing, and I do mean nothing, is as important as your first semester grades. They start you off right, and put together with next semester for your first year's grades, will likely determine your legal career.)

46
General Board / Re: Tactless or Gunner?
« on: January 06, 2009, 04:40:08 PM »
Amazing!

Despite the well-known existence of the law-school gunner, exgratia hass found him(her)self in a unique and enviable situation.

Simply put, exgratia managed to be placed in a class full of people who are ignorant of the law and unable to answer questions. Exgratia is doing the class a selfless favor by taking the horrible duty of answering the Professor's questions himself, because clearly, the rest of the ignorant dolts in the class couldn't fathom the brilliance that is exgratia. Soon they will be erecting statues and singing songs of greatness, extolling the virtues of exgratia!

Oh exgratia,
How great thee are,
I wish I knew the difference between horizontal and vertical privity
And could expound for hours with my ability
Knowing that your helium hands will rise
Oh exgratia, for thee I roll my eyes!
Attention whore much?  Cyber bullying fills your e-peen?

GG

Exgratia seems like a big boy. I do not live to be needlessly mean, but I also don't believe that we are all wonderful and unique snowflakes that just need to be nurtured and given gold stars. You don't get a gold star for finishing below the curve. Your client doesn't give you a blue ribbon for losing their company $200 million dollars. Your parents don't get to call the partnership committee and complain that they are being unfair to you . . . well, they could, but it doesn't work as well it did when they harassed your professor in undergrad to raise that C you partied your way into.

47
Law School Applications / Re: Chances at G'Town Scholarship?
« on: January 06, 2009, 04:02:39 PM »
1. Repeat after me- nobody cares about your personal statement. Nobody. You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake. The personal statement exists for three reasons:

a. To weed out people who chose not to spell check, cannot write coherent sentences, or otherwise are incapable of stringing two words together successfully.

b. To find those risk-takers who send in videos, write about their drunken spring exploits in Cabo, or send in an audiotape with a mock-epic rendition of their personal statement. Then those people are discarded. Lawyers are risk-averse; next time, apply to business school.

c. To allow people to think that they are more than the sum of their LSAT + UGPA.

2. Do not look for a scholarship to GULC. They should not pay your tuition to go there; they should pay you to go there as a 1L. Why not do what everyone else does? Go to a crappy TTT lawschool where they pay you a stipend and transfer to GULC as a 2L. They take anyone with a pulse at that point, and, if you pay a little extra, I've heard that the pulse "requirement" is optional. Word on the street is that next year, they'll allow you to send in a grand and they'll let you paste "G'Town" over the name of the TTT school that you currently have on your diploma. It's part of their new 4L transfer program.

Posts like this are the cancer of LSD. Some no name 0L providing opinion as though it is fact. This is read by other 0Ls and spreads like a virus into other posts.  Since only a few 0Ls really know what they are talking about during the admissions process, and most LSDers are a unique sample of the 0L population, the advice that is given in a substantial number of threads is bad, incomplete, or flawed. The problem is never ameliorated because so few 0Ls come back to post as 1 or 2Ls, and even if they do, they post more irregularly.

This why UM is great, Penn sucks, Go to the best school you get into, and GULC is too big and too competitive, while not giving scholarships perpetuates year after year.

I'm modifying this from my previous, snarkier response. Simply put, Moisy-

I highly recommend doing a bit of research before hitting the post button. That you do not like someone else's sarcastic take on your school's transfer policies does not absolve you from the extra five seconds due diligence it would take to realize that everything you wrote is in error because your premise is invalid. I trust you will learn to look and see when people have registered in the future, so you don't make the classic first semester 1L GULC mistake of assuming people are 0Ls.

48
Where should I go next fall? / Re: UF 3L - Will Answer Questions
« on: January 06, 2009, 10:34:54 AM »
Let me preface this answer with a few pieces of information you might not be aware of:

1. UF's student body (for the law school) is odd, in that you have a large number of good students, and a small (but significant) number of excellent students. The excellent students are competitive with anything you find at a T14 school; the good students simply are not as driven or as engaged with the law.

2. UF has some top-notch faculty, and some relics. You can chose to learn with the best or coast to easy grades with the worst. (Note that top-notch does not mean "biggest names" or "most published" but means "most engaged with the students and willing to try to impart information to them and hold them accountable for learning that information")

3. Given 1 & 2, supra, your experience at UF can be as rewarding as a T14 school let alone another T1 school, provided you are willing to deal with the hit to your prestige that comes with it. However, knowing this . . .

UF is the top dog in Florida. If you do well at UF (top 15%, LR/Moot/Journal) you can get any job you want in Florida. Off of the LR, I know people who are in all the BigLaw jobs in Miami, Tampa, Orlando, and Jax (all, like 3 BigLaw Firms that have offices there). In addition, many people go to Atlanta and DC. I have friends working in NYC and LA/SF. So if you do well, it's not a problem.

And, as I mentioned, it is still top dog in Florida. Great for clerkships (Fed & St.). Places in govt. and private. Amazing alum network. If you know you want to practice in Fla., I would go to UF.

The one exception I would make is if you got admission into a HYS-type school. That opens up all sorts of new possibilities. Emory wouldn't be enough (not at that tuition).

49
Hey- you hate The Ohio State too? I was hoping they would get so badly beat (again) that the LittleTen would be forced to disband and their teams would be scattered to the MAC and NESCAC. So far, no dice.

Might be nice to see the Blue&Maize get beat by Middlebury like a rented drum set by an autistic kid. And see the BuckEyes get hammered like Paris Hilton on an A-List director's casting couch by the likes of Colby.

50
Ah, c'mon. You're fighting the good fight! Remember, according to Scalia, we have a new *professional* police force that doesn't do wrong and doesn't really commit those pesky 1983 (if a merman I should be) actionable um... actions. Besides, Officer Friendly isn't using excessive force when the punk deserves it.

Few people understand the psychology of dealing with a highway traffic cop. A normal speeder will panic and immediately pull over to the side. This is wrong. It arouses contempt in the cop heart. Make the bastard chase you. He will follow. But he won't know what to make of your blinker signal that says you are about to turn right. This is to let him know you're pulling off for a proper place to talk. It will take him a moment to realize that he's about to make a 180 degree turn at speed, but you will be ready for it. Brace for the g's, and fast heel-toe work.

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