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Messages - loki13

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This is, quite literally, too much fun!
"All the ad hominem in the world doesn't change the fact that is NOT a tested crimpro question"

From the MBE, here are the list of topics tested that you might find relevant-
V. Constitutional protection of accused persons
A. Arrest, search and seizure
B. Confessions and privilege against
C. Lineups and other forms of identification
D. Right to counsel
E. Fair trial and guilty pleas
F. Double jeopardy
G. Cruel and unusual punishment
H. Burdens of proof and persuasion

From personal experience, I can tell you that this is not only a favorite of the MBE (it's an easily adjudicated question for multi-state), it's also a common fact pattern within states, and tends to come up on the essays. Are you sure you took the bar exam?

"And whats up with you arguing against your self on amendments? Who prior to that exact moment even mentioned them in any way?"
Because I assumed the issue was pretty obvious? It's sort of like, if I state, "The City Council passes an ordinance prohibiting the burning of the American flag," I don't think I have to specifically state, "And that's the First Amendment, via the 14th Amendment, and you might want to look at Texas v. Johnson." Or if I talk about a company requiring janitors to have a college diploma, I don't need to go through the history of Title VII, Griggs v. Duke Power, and I certainly don't need to describe McDonnell Douglas. At least, I hope not.

"I call troll. Im done with you."

The last refuge of someone who just can't bring themselves to admit they were wrong. I suggest working on that. It's a valuable skill in practice. The most common error for most attorneys is a refusal to acknowledge error when it is obvious. It can have disastrous repercussions- for example, when it is obvious to the Court.

I'm guessing it took more than one time for you.

But since you aren't clear on the fact pattern, this is basic Criminal Procedure. Specifically, the 5th (not 6th!) Amendment invocation of right to counsel to end custodial proceedings. Fair amount of case law on that. Also? Shows up on bar exams.

"As to being wrong, on what? I stand by my points."

I think your level of competence, at this point, speaks for itself.

"Helping your friend out is an example of something someone can do for themselves
and its not the power to take any ones freedom, at best its the opposite of that, in reality its making arguments still.
I stand by my points. I'd rather risk being jaded than self righteous. We wear a tie and use pomp a lot, but lets not confuse that with anything more than it is."

Wow.... "Helping your friend out is an example of something someone can do for themselves"

Are you sure you passed the bar? On your *first* try? This is one of those "general questions" that is actually applicable in all jurisdictions. So let's try this again.

Your friend was just arrested for a crime. You are a licensed attorney. Your friend says that you are his attorney, and he wants to speak to you. Now, what is the difference between you being his attorney, and you being his friend. Any power there?

"I stand by my points."

Why? You haven't answered any of the specific things I brought up. Did you look at the rules for your jurisdiction? What powers and abilities does a licensed attorney have that are not available to the general public? Did you look into your subpoena rules? How about various rules for recording? Anything?

I am somewhat amazed that you manage to stand by points that are demonstrably incorrect. That's not a good way to go through life.

" My point is we don't have any real power despite what loki was saying."

Really? I think you haven't practiced very long, or (perhaps) you're in an odd jurisdiction. Sure, a person can represent themselves (pro se). But this isn't just about the little "niceties" like, you know, being able to testify in court without swearing in (officer of the court) or registering for efiling. Or about "optional stuff" (quick- name a pro se prosecutor).

Can random person issue subpoenas without a case? Liens against property? Have you recently looked at the statutory allowances in your jurisdiction for what an attorney is allowed to do in your jurisdiction?

If your friend gets arrested, and says that you are his attorney, what happens when you show up at the precinct? How is that different than, say, if you don't have that meaningless license? Shall I keep going on, or will confess error?

"I hate to break it to you..."

Everything you wrote it is incorrect. I gave you specific examples. I am quite aware of my power, both under the rules (without requiring any court intervention) and, in general, as an officer of the court. If you are not aware of this, I don't know what to tell you.

Next, you seem to fundamentally misunderstand how to analyze this as a barrier to entry. So let's look-
First, does it work to prevent too many attorneys from practicing? Empirically, the answer is no. If anything, the bar (heh) is set too low.
Next, let's look at your argument re: ABA schools getting a free pass. Initially, this argument can be dismissed for the same reason you dismiss the bar exam, but at an even deeper level. Many ABA schools teach you nothing substantive about the practice of law in a particular jurisdiction. They are filled with electives, and don't have a set curriculum after the first year. Even if your school offers jurisdiction-specific classes, that will not account for people that want to practice, initially, in a different jurisdiction. Finally, and worst of all, there are two types of schools- those that work hard to keep their students in (in other words, you really have to affirmatively screw up to fail out), and those that fail out large numbers *because they admit to many that cannot pass the bar and they need to keep their ABA accreditation.*  IOW, for both types of schools, the bar exam operates as a necessary filter.
In short, your analysis is just that the bar exam isn't perfect. No, of course it isn't. Neither is the LSAT. Neither are the exams given to LEOs for admission (!!), training, certification, and promotion. But I'm glad we have them. Given the state of the profession, I think the least of the concerns is that barrier to entry is too high.

News Discussion / Re: POTUS
« on: August 19, 2015, 09:53:36 AM »
"I'll follow up later.  Not sure why you dont find me credible? Or incredible for that matter.  This isn't spin or partisanship playing because we are talking an actual federal criminal investigation not"

Because you don't seem to get basic facts correct? Let's take this, for example. Bridgegate was an actual criminal investigation, despite your "lol." A person might reasonably disagree with how "serious" they found it, but you do realize that-
1. There was a *federal* investigation.
2. There were indictments of key Christie officials.
3. There has already been a guilty plea.

So, um, yeah. This is why I don't find your facts very credible. More importantly, though, getting back to the OP, I have followed politics long enough to not get too concerned about day-to-day. For example, the reason that Christie is doomed isn't because of bridgegate- it's because he has no GOP support- either with the establishment any more (he burned those, um, bridges) and certainly not with the base.

In an ideal world, I would prefer that Clinton not be the nominee for the Democratic party (nor would I want Sanders, who is unelectable). But I am realistic enough to know that Clinton has the support of the party establishment, and while the House GOP is doing their darnedest to leak information that they believe will damage her, it is unlikely that anyone else will get the nomination, and it is 99% certain that *no one else currently running for the nomination for the Democrats* will.

I ate Pie-

"The FAA? Lets not pretend we are anywhere near that important."

So? I hate to break it to you, but attorneys have the power to put people in (and keep people out of) prison. They are officers of the court, and have the power (in many jurisdictions) to compel attendance and testimony without any further court order. Are they as important as pilots? Who knows. But can have power, just like many other professions that require licensing.

"The MBE tests on stuff that is NOT the law in your home state"
While a person might disagree with aspects of the MBE, it tries to distill generally applicable principles of law. No, they do not apply specifically anywhere, but they are usually slightly helpful everywhere.

"Then make it tested on real life stuff. Make it a real life series of court hearings after real life pretrial draftings for both civil and criminal cases in both district and circuit court."
I'm not sure how many times we've been over this, but many attorneys are not litigators. My friend couldn't draft a motion for extension of time to save his own life; on the other hand, when it comes to real estate closings on complex commercial developments, he's the man.

News Discussion / Re: POTUS
« on: August 18, 2015, 01:28:53 PM »

The FBI is not investigating Clinton. You understand that report was corrected, right?

The FBI is looking into the path of certain documents, that were not classified correctly, at the State Dep't.

Shorter version- the issue would not be whether or not Clinton herself did it incorrectly, it would be whether or not the documents should have been classified to begin with.

Now, I understand you enjoy your breathless "But she's Nixon," reporting. I don't really care for her myself. But given your postings, you will have to excuse me if I find you, well, not credible.

You'll have to be even more understanding when I say that you seem to have acquired POO (politically-obtained obtuseness) when it comes to reading. There is a difference between saying that my opinions have not changed, but they might change *if* a major Democratic player enters the field (because that would mean that there is actual currency to the issue beside your fevered imagination), as opposed to "hedging my bets." This is no different that if I were to say, "My opinion has not changed, but if Clinton was to die, I doubt she will be President."

News Discussion / Re: POTUS
« on: August 18, 2015, 08:03:00 AM »
"Now, like Clinton you are changing your story.  First Clinton was a sure thing--even gambling odds"

I haven't changed my story. You seem incapable of reading. And her odds (either 1-5, or 1-6 for the Demcoratic nomination, even odds for Presidency) are the same. Status quo, remember.

The only way that will change is that if enough eventually comes out that a real player in Democratic politics comes out to challenge her (because that means that she has lot support where it matters, and the powers that be know it). That's when you will know that any of this stuff actually matters outside of your own echo chamber.

That's also why I'm not overly concerned that the GOP field has Trump, Carson, and Cruz as the frontrunners right now. We can check in again later.

News Discussion / Re: POTUS
« on: August 17, 2015, 04:52:28 PM »
 "Barring a Republican part[y] that shoots itself in the foot."

The three leaders for the GOP nomination, currently, and the only ones polling in double digits:
Trump, Carson, Cruz.

In order to shoot itself in the foot, the GOP would have to take said foot out of its mouth. Wouldn't want a headshot, after all.

"Clinton is legal toast."

Nope. Now, if you wanted to make a case that a drawn-out accumulation of innuendo might draw a serious challenger into the race, that would be interesting (no, Sanders and O'Malley are not serious). There's certainly time for that, and, inter alia, Biden's camp has floated the rumor. But unless and until that happens, I'd bet on the status quo. You rarely lose money with that.

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