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Messages - loki13

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Law School Admissions / Re: URM African American Male
« on: January 31, 2017, 02:23:28 PM »
A law degree is a law degree to me. I'm fine with a median tier school.

I'm trying to be nice. Even as an URM, a 140 is really, really low. Check out LSN (lawschool numbers). In 2013, when it was (slightly) easier to get in, you can see this user profile-

Yeah, URM, 145 LSAT, got into Ol' Miss. But there's a big gap between a 140 and a 145. With a 140, you're looking at Florida Coastal type of schools. A 143 and a 3.1 got an URM into the Charleston School of Law (yeah ....).

You will get in somewhere. But that "somewhere" may not be where you want to go to school. And with a 140, you are predicted to seriously struggle in law school, and if you get through the 3 years, to struggle to pass the bar.

I cannot recommend highly enough re-taking the LSAT. Even a 145 (with URM) substantially improves the schools you can get into.

If you must go with that score, send apps to the lower-tier school in the state/metro region you want to practice in, along with a few apps to some reach schools.

Good luck!

Law School Admissions / Re: URM African American Male
« on: January 31, 2017, 10:12:38 AM »
LSAT 140 GPA is 3.1 any really chances of getting into any 2 tier or 3 tier law schools? I am a year out of undergrad now. I worked with lawmakers/ interned on Capitol Hill in DC as a congressional intern and I'm currently working at the Biggest Law Firm in my state.  I've heard of a URM boost to some applicants. Does every law school practice this, cause I know that some states view Affirmative Action stuff as unconstitutional. What schools do I need to apply to? HELP!!!!

First, the bad news. A 140 is a really low LSAT score. As put famously in a presentation to the Florida Coastal School of Law, an LSAT score of 144 or below is "low aptitude, extreme risk."

The reason that I am writing that is as follows:
Can you get into a law school, somewhere? Yes, you can. Given the cratering of admissions, and your URM status, you can.
Should you? Ehhh...

Look, your LSAT score indicates that you are very much at risk for not passing the Bar Exam. If you don't pass the Bar, you won't practice law. That's three years, and a lot of money, down the drain.

So, my main recommendation is this- take the LSAT again. Really work it. You should be able to improve on general test taking and the logic games section. You should shoot for at least a 147 (147-149 is moderate aptitude, high risk of not passing the bar). And seriously consider if you want to go to law school.

Okay, after you've observed that, you need to focus your search. Where do you want to practice, and how much can you afford? Then take a look at websites (lawschoolnumbers for people admitted, and lawschooltransparency for median numbers and trends) to inform you.

Good luck!

Poster who edits their name on a regular basis, but I call snake,

You are so perceptive! How did you know- wait, you must have majored in Child Advocacy! That's it, right?

Oh, my unique and special snowflake, you might consider that:
1) There are very few people still posting on the board; and
2) At some point, you might have actual legal questions (like serving process) that you want serious answers to, and this just isn't the best reputation for the few people who still bother.

But hey- your posts, your call!

Hello I need help! I want to go into either child advocacy law or criminal law and I want to know if anyone knows of any good schools with great programs for either of these majors? :o

1. There are no "majors" in law school. Just a JD.

2. Any school will teach you enough to go into child advocacy law or criminal law.

3. Do not believe the self-rankings of schools regarding their programs; with a very few exceptions (such as tax law, which you need an LLM for anyway) it doesn't matter at all. Certainly not for those areas.

4. Go to the school the you like, that is the least expensive, in the geographic area that you believe you will practice.

Finally, good luck. Those are two fields that I could never practice in. It's not the law - it's the facts, if you know what I mean.

Not true, MANY have majors as options, and without question concentrations on the rest, and different quality of clinics for options (if any at all in those specific areas)

Let's see. What did you write? You wrote that many law schools have majors, and those that didn't would have concentrations or clinics.

WOAH, dude! It's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about! It's like ... you have a reading comprehension or memory issue.

Did you know that reading comprehension and memory issues make it difficult to take standardized tests? Might have wanted to get an accommodation for that.

Seriously, though. Please stop providing inaccurate information.

gave links as proof, spoon fed, idiots only grasp first long winded ad hominem, and then denial of spoon fed reality

whatever guys

up is still up and down is still down -insert snarky pointless back and forth BS here if desired-

You gave links? Really? Please, help us Obi Wan. Show us the links to the law school majors. Come on now, you can do it! Yes you can. Googling isn't nearly as hard as a bar exam.


Perfect troll logic.

Claim: law schools totally have majors.

Obvious reality: no, they don't.

Troll response: well, uh, where's the links to the law schools showing they aren't offering what they aren't offering!

In other news, law schools don't offer concentrations in watermelon law. Kinda hard to post that link, because ... wait for it ... it doesn't exist. Like a law school major.
dear god I hope you aren't actually handling any cases

Dear poster formally known as snake,

I know things are tough for you; after all, you did fail the bar exam the first time! But let me tell you something; it does get easier! Really. And luckily for you, after a while, no one will care that you couldn't even pass the bar. But here's the thing; high barriers to entry already exist in our profession. Once you're in, you're set. So relax, and stop trolling those poor people who are just looking for information. 'Kay?

Now, my little special troll, it helps to be able to read, in legal practice, on bar exams, and even in comment threads! A "concentration" is not a major. That's already been addressed. Any practicing attorney who says they "majored" in something in law school will be laughed at, like Maintain and I laugh at you. A clinic is also not a "major." These distinctions are important, because a JD is a certain type of degree that does not allow for "majors." And neither does the ABA (for those who go to accredited schools). So as I already wrote, certain schools will give you a shiny, happy piece of paper for completing bogus objectives, "Look, person who doesn't know better, you can have your pro bono / child advocacy / criminal law certificate!" And, if you would like, you can say that you completed it! Pat on the head for you! But it doesn't mean anything.

But you wouldn't say you majored in child advocacy. I mean, I'm sure you would write that you majored in Pro Bono, but that's just the kind of special that you are!

So we'll try this one more time, shall we? Can you show a single school that has a ... wait for it ... major in law school? You know, for a JD? Not a clinic. Not a special happy certificate made up by the school. Not an LLM program (because that's a different degree, as I already told you, just like I already told you about concentrations).

Go on ... you can do it! I know you can! Make us proud!


Perfect troll logic.

Claim: law schools totally have majors.

Obvious reality: no, they don't.

Troll response: well, uh, where's the links to the law schools showing they aren't offering what they aren't offering!

In other news, law schools don't offer concentrations in watermelon law. Kinda hard to post that link, because ... wait for it ... it doesn't exist. Like a law school major.


lets just say that loki didn't cite his sources for a reason

I didn't need to cite sources because it's self-evident to (1) any attorney, (2) anyone in law school, and (3) any one that has a passing familiarity with higher education. It's a /facepalm along the lines of asking, "What was your major in medical school?" You get an M.D., and then you get a residency in a certain area. Well, in law school, you get a J.D. Full stop.

There are schools that like to offer "concentrations" or "specialties" in certain areas. If you do certain required courses (and/or clinics) you can get a nice, wonderful, piece of paper that has no relevance whatsoever. It's not a major. It's the school saying, "Yep, he took some environmental law courses." If you write that you have a "major" in law school on your resume, you will quickly get it discarded.

Once you get your J.D, you could get a Master of Laws (a further graduate degree) in a particular subject. You know- L.L.M in taxation. Finally, you can get a doctorate in law. But "majors" is an undergraduate concept.

That said, given your responses for some time, I have to assume you only troll on legal subjects.

The wife is set on staying in her home town for her support network. I cannot change that. I am not expecting to commute either. I don't have direct experience, but I expect law school to eat away at me (especially since I am a perfectionist and will be looking to be the top in my class, on the trial team, etc.). I hope to travel home on the weekends, or maybe twice a month if I need to do additional school work.

That's why distance factors so heavily in the conversation, and why I dismissed the idea of William and Mary even though they are offering me $10k a year and the GI Bill would pay for all tuition. I have no love of Tampa, but it seems hard to turn down the money offered by Stetson even if UF is going to make getting a job easier later. The problem is that the two considerations are so different that it is hard to compare them.

First, stop stressing and concentrate on the positives. You have been accepted to the good law schools in the state you want to practice in. Congratulations! There is no truly "bad" option between UF, FSU, and Stetson. Instead, you're making a positive choice as to which of the schools best fits your needs.

So let's look at some factors-
1. Your wife and family live in Vero Beach and want to stay there. First things first- is this going to be your permanent home after law school? If so, then, well, the Ft. Pierce/Lucie legal market isn't that large, and I wouldn't recommend the commute to Orlando or W. Palm (yep!). But it's doable- there are jobs. Just not ... your pick of jobs, or "BigLaw" jobs.

2. If you're not willing to relocate, Stetson's relative advantage in Tampa doesn't mean anything, and you'd be better off with UF or FSU's overall advantage. Ideally, given what you have written about costs, I'd recommend FSU. However ...

3. There's no way you'd be regularly, or semi-regularly, visiting your family from FSU. Not going to happen. Weird fact that you may (or may not) be aware of, but because of the road set up and E/W travel in Florida, UF and Stetson are about the same distance from Vero Beach. Go fig.

4. Given your military background, and non-traditional status (that's fancy talk for, "taking time off between UG and law school") I expect that you will treat law school like a job, and put the time in. So I'm going to be honest with you- if you want to place at the top of your class, and you want the prestigious extras (law review, moot court, trial team), you will be a ghost to your family for a good part of your first two years. I was a non-trad with a family, and I did the work to place at the top of my class and get law review, and I was effectively a stranger for the first two years ... and I lived with them.

In the end, you need to make the decision that is best for you, and I can't answer that. I can tell you that if everything else is equal, I would go UF > FSU .... > Stetson. But I would also say that the difference between UF and FSU is negligible. The most important thing is to graduate with little debt.

I will add this; where you graduated from will not matter after several years of practice, other than alum networks. It will help with your first job (or jobs, if you get a new job early in your career). But debt ... that can haunt you.

But for your family, given what you wrote about the costs, I would choose FSU. If your family is a concern (as in regular visits) then you should choose between UF and Stetson.

What MaintainFL wrote is mostly correct, with some caveats. The USNWR can tell you two things-
1. The things you already know (hey, Harvard is a good school!).
2. A rough idea of the relative "merit" (using the term loosely) of various schools, in general.

The second point is a difficult one to understand. The difference between a school ranked #35 and a school ranked #75 isn't as great as the difference between a school ranked #3 and that ranked #20. Nevertheless, it gives you a good idea both of where schools place (T14 = national, rest of "T1" = regional, T2 = state (usually) T3 = state or local (usually)) as well as, roughly, how the schools compare to each other.

In this case, I can tell you that USNWR does a good job at ranking the Florida legal market. UF is a little better (at most) than FSU- people aruge round and round, but either they are equal, or UF is slightly better (most people would say it is top in the state). Miami is just a little bit below them (but has a slight advantage in SE Fla.). And then there is a significant reputation drop before Stetson (Tampa market) and FIU (SE Florida). And then there is a big drop before the rest.

That said, given you have a generalized preference for either criminal or family law, I don't think it really matters. There are no special degrees, and all the schools offer clinics that allow you to either clerk with a judge or work in a local office. The more important issue is lowering your total cost of attendance; while you might be set on family law/criminal law now, that opinion might change (or might not).

Finally, if you are set on Tampa, Stetson is a fine choice and provides the best way to network while in-school (UF is second, FSU is a distant third due to distance). If you're not certain that you want to practice in the greater Tampa area, then you should consider your options.

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