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Messages - lawstudent2011

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31
Law School Admissions / Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
« on: February 24, 2011, 11:45:54 AM »
case in point with this winner eh jack? 8)

50K to 80K is not that much for an annual income - ESPECIALLY if you have significant student loans to repay.

32
Law School Admissions / Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
« on: February 24, 2011, 11:45:09 AM »
For the most part I think you and I are saying the same basic thing. Don't go into ANY profession unless you are willing to put up with a little heartache from time to time. The same mentality I suspect is why less than a third of the nation even applies to serve in the military. (they might make me cry :'( ) But then again, that's probably why I have a grunt mentality on it. Do your job, get it done, move on with life.

I suspect most people are just weak and would cry no matter they do in life. For example the head banker example would require a CPA/MBA which would also put you in debt and the odds of getting that job are virtually zero. Most end up as the teller making the same as the guy serving slurpies down the road. :P



There are a lot of other options out there.  I think you and I can agree that you should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer, and then find a way to make it work.  (Although I think a lot of people go to law school without enough experience to know if they want to be a lawyer)

Feel free to ignore the rest of this post, but I'm very bored in a very boring 3L class, so I need something to do.

I want to contrast the experience of an attorney I know and a potential alternative.

This attorney was on Law review, he was in the top half of his class at a school ranked in the 60-80 range.  He built up 90,000 in debt in law school, and he got a job in a good DA's office in a medium sized metro area (Population around 2 million).

He started 8 years ago at 50,000/year and now he makes 83,000 per year.  He and I are good friends so he told me his ballpark salary for each year. 

Another man I know got his degree in business and got a job as a community banker.  He started his career the same year my attorney friend started law school, so it's perfect for this comparison.

Here's how the 11 years worked out for the two of them.

Year One:   Lawyer -30,000  ; Banker (Teller) 19,500
 Two:  Lawyer -30,000  ; Banker (Car Loans) 24,500
 Three: Lawyer -30,000  ;  Banker (Assistant Manager) 29,000
 Four: Lawyer: 50,000  ;  Banker (Branch Manager) 38,000
 Five:  Lawyer 52,000  ;  Banker  42,000
Six:  Lawyer 54,000   ;   Banker 46,000
Seven:  Lawyer (Promoted) 62,000   ;  Banker  50,000
Eight:  Lawyer  65,000  ;   Banker 52,500
Nine:  Lawyer  67,000  ;   Banker (Regional Manager)  63,000
Ten:  Lawyer (Promoted) 80,000  ;  Banker  66,000
Eleven:  Lawyer: 83000  ;  Banker  69,000

If we don't consider any interest, then the lawyer sits at a total income (minus loans) of $423,000 over 11 Years
The Banker sits at  $499,500.

Eventually the lawyer will probably pass the banker, unless the banker gets a better promotion or has a different successful business venture.  Maybe the lawyer might even jump into private practice and start making $200,000 a year.

To those who want to go to law school: Just consider how this was a good candidate who got a decent job right out of law school about 8 years ago (When the market was probably a lot better than now).   Law school might be a good investment, but think of what else you could accomplish with 3 years of freedom and close to 100,000 dollars?

I just don't think anyone should go to law school unless their primary motivation is that they want to work as a lawyer for 45-70 hours a week. 




"good investment" is a relative term. If you read my earlier posts I was argueing with some idiot who wanted to believe that most lawyers will make under $30K. You are saying(very correctly) that most will make well over $55K. Many will make well over $100K.
This is a good thing. I think we both should be able to argue that.
We also agree that students loans are payable based on income. So a "huge" debt is a relative term also. If you make the big bucks, you can pay it back with little problem(so why thebitchin? ???) If you get screwed and make tiny amounts, you walk away debt free since it evaporates in a few years anyways with $0 payments, or close to it.

You are right most will make in the middle at first, and it will help them ease into it. People just want to cry. Let them cry.
In all reality what else is there out there? Medical school? Fine, but most lawyers wouldn't be fit to work in a butchershop let alone an ER.
That leaves what, cutting hair? ::)


33
Law School Admissions / Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
« on: February 24, 2011, 09:19:18 AM »
"good investment" is a relative term. If you read my earlier posts I was argueing with some idiot who wanted to believe that most lawyers will make under $30K. You are saying(very correctly) that most will make well over $55K. Many will make well over $100K.
This is a good thing. I think we both should be able to argue that.
We also agree that students loans are payable based on income. So a "huge" debt is a relative term also. If you make the big bucks, you can pay it back with little problem(so why thebitchin? ???) If you get screwed and make tiny amounts, you walk away debt free since it evaporates in a few years anyways with $0 payments, or close to it.

You are right most will make in the middle at first, and it will help them ease into it. People just want to cry. Let them cry.
In all reality what else is there out there? Medical school? Fine, but most lawyers wouldn't be fit to work in a butchershop let alone an ER.
That leaves what, cutting hair? ::)


My point is that on the income based loan repayment plan, most people will end up paying all of their loans back because they won't always be stuck at a low income for 25 years.  It gives people the opportunity to ease into the payments, but it's not an enviable situation.

If you have 120k in debt and two kids, you will have to pay about 275 bucks a month under the plan if you make 55,000 a year.  If you are stuck at 55,000 for the next 25 years then you will only have to pay 87,500 back.  I'd hate to think anyone would only average 55k a year as an attorney, but I guess that might happen.
The majority of people will have to pay a lot more later than they would have under a normal plan.

You are essentially arguing that going to law school isn't a bad decision even if you go to a T4 and graduate with a ton of debt.  We are arguing that your statistical chance of that being a good financial investment is very low.  But go ahead and make the most of it if that's what you want out of life.

34
Transferring / Re: Transfer from Cooley
« on: February 24, 2011, 12:00:52 AM »
why do you mostly hang out with other transfers? Is everyone else already in their cliche?
Well that is tough to gauge.  My new school offers so many more classes in my concentration than Cooley did.  In that respect, educational quality has increased greatly from the T4 to T2.  I suspect you are wondering more about teachers and classes in general though.  I liked my teachers at Cooley and they were all very knowledgeable.    Many came from well respected schools themselves like UM.  I can say the same about professors here. 

As for the students, they are probably a bit more intelligent on average here.  They don't work quite as hard, but they don't have to because the school doesn't require every test be 100% closed book.  I spend most of my time with other transfers though, so my perception is based entirely on grade distributions and student responses in class.  Is this the type of response you were looking for?  If not, feel free to clarify.   

35
Law School Admissions / Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
« on: February 23, 2011, 11:02:21 PM »
How the hell do you figure that?

[/quote]

I'm glad that at least we don't disagree that you're just making an assumption.
[/quote]

36
Law School Admissions / Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
« on: February 23, 2011, 07:42:02 PM »
Holy bunnies, a lawstudent wanting to graduate lawschool and be a lawyer?!?!?! DEAR GOD!!!!!!!! ::)

Just because a fish wants to swim dosn't change the fact that the water is still wet either.  :-X

Some people just want to cry no matter what. :'( Don't let me stop you there superstar.  :'(

Lawstudents and lawyers just want to keep people out to lower the competition.

Conveniently, this assumption allows you to keep doing what you wanted to do in the first place.

37
Is it any suprise then that their top competitor TimeMagazine wrote an article questioning the rankings system?
How long untill they do the same do you think?
And, if they asked my opinion of some school I know nothing about it Alabama or New Hampshire, I would probably just make a guess based on the previous U.S. News data.

This is why the reputation scores only really make sense for the top 15-20 schools, which as someone pointed out is about how far USNews makes sense.

38
Law School Admissions / Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
« on: February 23, 2011, 01:54:18 PM »
No *&^% they don't "plan" to use it, since they don't "plan" to make that little to begin with. BUT if they do,then it's there.
Plus the interest at that point might as well be imaginary since it's forgiven and disapears into thin air at the end of the clock for them anyways.

If you make too much to use the program, then you don't need to bitchabout low income. If you do qualify, then you don't need to bitchabout high repayment. Other way it's fine.

Lawstudents and lawyers just want to keep people out to lower the competition. Stop trying to keep some teen from going to school and just do a better job and you'll be fine. Just don't suck.  :-X :P

Where are you getting your information?  Are you graduating law school in 2011 or staring law school in 2011?
Either way you are straight up wrong.

There are plenty of law jobs out there for 35-45k a year.  The public sector jobs that pay around 55,000 have hundreds of applicants from strong schools.

Your claims about the income based payback are screwed up too.  Even if you do get the opportunity to defer more of your payments, your loans will still accrue interest, and if you ever do start making good money you will have to pay large payments.   


Here is the information on income based repayment  http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/IBRPlan.jsp
it's a good option for those who are in trouble, but very few people should go to law school with plans to utilize this program. 

Even T4 Grads with a 2.05 graduating GPA start out at around $50K, PLUS the Govt has it as income based payback now(if you F'up and make less than $20K the payment is ZERO each month, PLUS after 25 years it's AUTOMATICLY expunged debt!)

So, if you'd prefer to cry and see clothes at the mall, go for it. Just STFU on the way out,  :-X :'(

Law school is not worth the 100K+ debt you will incur and the 30K job prospects you will have later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE


http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/

39
Why transfer? Do you think you will do BETTER at a school that tends to accept people with higher GPA and LSAT scores?

40
Is it just me, or are there about 4 questions in a constant loop on this site and nothing else? :-\

It's up to you kid, but I'd go the free ride. Others will post with why the opposit is true, and it'll be a copy&paste of the same question asked ever day for the last decade or so.  :P

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