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Messages - lawstudent2011

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31
You could always drop off mid final semester and refuse to accept your degree. You might get part of your final semesters tuition back. ::)

In reality though, your second post sounds like a  better idea. Just try to find an area of law that you'd enjoy. Your low GPA won't be the end of the world. Just get a job, try to enjoy it, do good, and work your way up the foodchain.

Either that, or show it off as the equivelent of DBA and get a job managering a Denny's somewhere. Your choice I guess.

32
 ;)
Nevermind, I am in directly...thanks!

33
Pre-Law in high school / Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
« on: February 24, 2011, 01:45:54 PM »
case in point with this winner eh jack? 8)

50K to 80K is not that much for an annual income - ESPECIALLY if you have significant student loans to repay.

34
Pre-Law in high school / Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
« on: February 24, 2011, 01:45:09 PM »
For the most part I think you and I are saying the same basic thing. Don't go into ANY profession unless you are willing to put up with a little heartache from time to time. The same mentality I suspect is why less than a third of the nation even applies to serve in the military. (they might make me cry :'( ) But then again, that's probably why I have a grunt mentality on it. Do your job, get it done, move on with life.

I suspect most people are just weak and would cry no matter they do in life. For example the head banker example would require a CPA/MBA which would also put you in debt and the odds of getting that job are virtually zero. Most end up as the teller making the same as the guy serving slurpies down the road. :P



There are a lot of other options out there.  I think you and I can agree that you should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer, and then find a way to make it work.  (Although I think a lot of people go to law school without enough experience to know if they want to be a lawyer)

Feel free to ignore the rest of this post, but I'm very bored in a very boring 3L class, so I need something to do.

I want to contrast the experience of an attorney I know and a potential alternative.

This attorney was on Law review, he was in the top half of his class at a school ranked in the 60-80 range.  He built up 90,000 in debt in law school, and he got a job in a good DA's office in a medium sized metro area (Population around 2 million).

He started 8 years ago at 50,000/year and now he makes 83,000 per year.  He and I are good friends so he told me his ballpark salary for each year. 

Another man I know got his degree in business and got a job as a community banker.  He started his career the same year my attorney friend started law school, so it's perfect for this comparison.

Here's how the 11 years worked out for the two of them.

Year One:   Lawyer -30,000  ; Banker (Teller) 19,500
 Two:  Lawyer -30,000  ; Banker (Car Loans) 24,500
 Three: Lawyer -30,000  ;  Banker (Assistant Manager) 29,000
 Four: Lawyer: 50,000  ;  Banker (Branch Manager) 38,000
 Five:  Lawyer 52,000  ;  Banker  42,000
Six:  Lawyer 54,000   ;   Banker 46,000
Seven:  Lawyer (Promoted) 62,000   ;  Banker  50,000
Eight:  Lawyer  65,000  ;   Banker 52,500
Nine:  Lawyer  67,000  ;   Banker (Regional Manager)  63,000
Ten:  Lawyer (Promoted) 80,000  ;  Banker  66,000
Eleven:  Lawyer: 83000  ;  Banker  69,000

If we don't consider any interest, then the lawyer sits at a total income (minus loans) of $423,000 over 11 Years
The Banker sits at  $499,500.

Eventually the lawyer will probably pass the banker, unless the banker gets a better promotion or has a different successful business venture.  Maybe the lawyer might even jump into private practice and start making $200,000 a year.

To those who want to go to law school: Just consider how this was a good candidate who got a decent job right out of law school about 8 years ago (When the market was probably a lot better than now).   Law school might be a good investment, but think of what else you could accomplish with 3 years of freedom and close to 100,000 dollars?

I just don't think anyone should go to law school unless their primary motivation is that they want to work as a lawyer for 45-70 hours a week. 




"good investment" is a relative term. If you read my earlier posts I was argueing with some idiot who wanted to believe that most lawyers will make under $30K. You are saying(very correctly) that most will make well over $55K. Many will make well over $100K.
This is a good thing. I think we both should be able to argue that.
We also agree that students loans are payable based on income. So a "huge" debt is a relative term also. If you make the big bucks, you can pay it back with little problem(so why thebitchin? ???) If you get screwed and make tiny amounts, you walk away debt free since it evaporates in a few years anyways with $0 payments, or close to it.

You are right most will make in the middle at first, and it will help them ease into it. People just want to cry. Let them cry.
In all reality what else is there out there? Medical school? Fine, but most lawyers wouldn't be fit to work in a butchershop let alone an ER.
That leaves what, cutting hair? ::)


35
Pre-Law in high school / Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
« on: February 24, 2011, 11:19:18 AM »
"good investment" is a relative term. If you read my earlier posts I was argueing with some idiot who wanted to believe that most lawyers will make under $30K. You are saying(very correctly) that most will make well over $55K. Many will make well over $100K.
This is a good thing. I think we both should be able to argue that.
We also agree that students loans are payable based on income. So a "huge" debt is a relative term also. If you make the big bucks, you can pay it back with little problem(so why thebitchin? ???) If you get screwed and make tiny amounts, you walk away debt free since it evaporates in a few years anyways with $0 payments, or close to it.

You are right most will make in the middle at first, and it will help them ease into it. People just want to cry. Let them cry.
In all reality what else is there out there? Medical school? Fine, but most lawyers wouldn't be fit to work in a butchershop let alone an ER.
That leaves what, cutting hair? ::)


My point is that on the income based loan repayment plan, most people will end up paying all of their loans back because they won't always be stuck at a low income for 25 years.  It gives people the opportunity to ease into the payments, but it's not an enviable situation.

If you have 120k in debt and two kids, you will have to pay about 275 bucks a month under the plan if you make 55,000 a year.  If you are stuck at 55,000 for the next 25 years then you will only have to pay 87,500 back.  I'd hate to think anyone would only average 55k a year as an attorney, but I guess that might happen.
The majority of people will have to pay a lot more later than they would have under a normal plan.

You are essentially arguing that going to law school isn't a bad decision even if you go to a T4 and graduate with a ton of debt.  We are arguing that your statistical chance of that being a good financial investment is very low.  But go ahead and make the most of it if that's what you want out of life.

36
Transferring / Re: Transfer from Cooley
« on: February 24, 2011, 02:00:52 AM »
why do you mostly hang out with other transfers? Is everyone else already in their cliche?
Well that is tough to gauge.  My new school offers so many more classes in my concentration than Cooley did.  In that respect, educational quality has increased greatly from the T4 to T2.  I suspect you are wondering more about teachers and classes in general though.  I liked my teachers at Cooley and they were all very knowledgeable.    Many came from well respected schools themselves like UM.  I can say the same about professors here. 

As for the students, they are probably a bit more intelligent on average here.  They don't work quite as hard, but they don't have to because the school doesn't require every test be 100% closed book.  I spend most of my time with other transfers though, so my perception is based entirely on grade distributions and student responses in class.  Is this the type of response you were looking for?  If not, feel free to clarify.   

37
Pre-Law in high school / Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
« on: February 24, 2011, 01:02:21 AM »
How the hell do you figure that?

[/quote]

I'm glad that at least we don't disagree that you're just making an assumption.
[/quote]

38
top 20%? Wow, that means that 80% of the group will be catscratching eachothers eyes out.
Yeah, I wouldn't do that BS either. Seems like a scam so that the school can make a lot of money.
People can diss T4's all they want, but an 80% Attrition rate is INSANE! Just a money making scam.

The website has a better description than I'd be able to write: Summer Conditional Program
The Summer Conditional Program permits invited students lacking the traditional indicia of success to demonstrate that their ability transcends their quantitative credentials. Applicants possessing credentials close to those of accepted students may be invited to participate in a three-week set of week-long units on various topics beginning in mid-June.  Each unit is taught by a full-time member of the law faculty.  At the end of each week, students will be tested on the material covered during that week.  Students will be graded on a point-scale system; students in the top 20% of the class will be admitted to the fall entering class.  The performance in law school of students admitted through the Conditional Program has been strong.

I don't think I would go for this, its too subjective and risky especially since I don't already live in Miami.

39
whats a summer conditional? Does it count towards the JD or is it a seperate program?

40
As a general rule any Congrat you are accepted responces are an affirmative responce.
To be positive on it, email or call them. I'd recommend both.

Hey all...so my status checker for St Thomas has said 'Congratulations You've been Accepted!' for almost a week and I haven't received anything in the mail....the fee portion shows a line for "Summer Conditional Fee"  so I was disappointed but then today I received two emails for invitations for an information session for admitted students and an online chat.

Does anyone have any insight into whether I'm accepted straight or through Summer Conditional? Has anyone been accepted through Summer Conditional and what does it say in the status checker for that? Thanks in advance!

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