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Messages - Anti09

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Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Can any transfers help me??
« on: March 04, 2013, 05:58:19 PM »
Do not go to law school intending to transfer.  It is almost certainly not going to happen.  You need to 10% to have a realistic shot, and trying to predict your 1L grades is nearly impossible since you don't know how your classmates will do.  The rule of thumb is to assume you will graduate at median and estimate your job prospects on that basis.  If you aren't comfortable with where that puts you at Fordham, do not attend Fordham.

Might be too late, but OP, please do not pay a dime for American.  Its ranking is a joke, and its employment statistics are absolutely horrendous.  Only 35% of it's class last year found work as a lawyer:

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: March 02, 2013, 03:29:53 PM »
If law school is so awful then why don't you take your own advice and get out? It truly sounds like you hate the system and nobody is forcing you to attend law school. If you are this upset with law school your going to hate being a lawyer even more and be miserable. Honestly, I would drop out tommorow if I was in your situation it sounds like your miserable. Your the classic example of someone that shouldn't be there so leave and move onto something you enjoy.

Straw man is made of straw.

Show me where I said I "hate law school" or that I was "miserable."  I actually quite like law school so far, and I'm happy that I am here.  I'm especially happy that I am attending a school that gives me good job prospects at a reasonable price. 

Nowhere did I say that OP should not attend law school.  I don't think I have told anybody not to attend law school.  My position has been pretty explicit - as I said in another thread:

Quote from: Anti09
I am not advising OP not to attend law school.  I am simply advising OP to sit down and crunch the numbers . . . it will become quickly apparent that attending this school, at the price OP would be paying, is financial suicide even if OP is lucky enough to find a job. 

I stand by that statement.  If OP truly wants to go to law school, he should.  What he should not do is go to TJSL; an obscenely overpriced, bottom-barrel degree mill that exists only to rip off its students, knowing full well that the vast majority of them are signing up for a lifelong debt prison they will never escape from.  Even for free, TJSL is not worth OP's time (or anyone else's) without the promise of a job in the bag.  Otherwise, it's far more likely than not that OP will never work as a lawyer, and will waste three years of his life on a functionally worthless degree.

I am not here to spread doom and gloom about the legal industry.  I'm here to spread truth:  Hard facts, evidence, and a much needed dose of common sense.  If OP were attending a T14 school, or a lesser ranked school at a reasonable price, I would tell him to go for it, like I have told many others.  That is not the case here.  OP is considering one of the absolute worst schools in the country, in one of the most saturated markets in the country, and debating about whether to take out nearly a quarter-million dollars in non-dischargeable loans for the privilege of a 30% shot of obtaining a "shitlaw" gig that will pay $50k per year. 

I do not want to see anybody in such an awful situation.  I am not sure why you do.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: March 02, 2013, 01:07:21 PM »
I don't have a financial interest in any law school, but I could be lying and be the Dean of TJSL posting on the internet to encourage you to attend or I could be some bum in a library. What I really am if you want to believe it is a guy who went to law school and was terrified by posters such as Anti09 when I was a OL. However, having gone through law school I realized that listening to people who have never set foot in a law school classroom and for some reason spends hours a day posting about the pitfalls of law school on the internet probably are not the best source of information. I am also not a good source because I have never met you and know nothing about your situation, what you want, or what is best for you.

I'm in law school right now, since you constantly bring it up.  I would think that an actual student currently involved in the hiring process has a vastly more useful perspective than someone so clearly out of touch with the current realities of the legal market.

Jack24 who posts on this site and I can tell from his writing actually attended law school makes some valid points regarding the economics of law school. I agree with most of that analysis and if you are going to law school to make money and nothing else I would not recommend TJSL or law school in general. However, if you really want to be a D.A., Public Defender, City Attorney, or have some cause you really believe in then TJSL can work out for you, but you know what your personal goals are and perhaps those who personally know you can offer insight as well.

None of those jobs you listed are easy to obtain, and positions exist in very limited quantities.  Those jobs will become even more scarce with the looming sequester and increasingly dire budget crises faced by State and Local governments.  If your backup plan is becoming a D.A., you're gonna have a bad time.

If you go to TJSL and pass the bar you can probably find work as a lawyer,

This statement is indisputably false.  The vast, overwhelming majority of TJSL graduates will never work as a lawyer.  Reams of statistical data support this claim.  Since 2009, TJSL has placed an average of 34% of their class into full time, JD required jobs.  Their placement numbers have steadily declined every year, with no signs of reversing the trend. 

Thomas Jefferson School of Law is objectively one of the worst law schools in the country, located in one of the most saturated legal markets in the country. It should be obvious that attending this school is, for 99% of all applicants, an abjectly terrible decision.  The only scenario in which it might make sense would be if one could attend for completely free, including living expenses, and a close family relative who owns a successful law firm has promised them a job (in writing) upon graduation.

but it will take time and it will not be much money when you start out. For all three years of law school you will be stressed about finding a job and incurring substantial debt. Then you will take the bar exam with those stressors and it will be a terrible summer and even worse 4 month waiting period. If you pass you will then be a licensed lawyer, but it will then be up to you to make a career with that law license and the money is not great for the majority of lawyers, but it can be a very rewarding career for the right person.

Even if OP is one of the lucky 30% who scores a job as a lawyer, how exactly do you expect him to pay off $250,000 in debt?  You even acknowledge that he will not make much money.  How is one expected to handle monthly loan payments of $2,600 for 10 years on a salary of $60k?  You have repeatedly failed to adequately explain this point, besides bizarrely discounting the NALP salary data as inexplicably flawed. 

Take everything you read from anonymous internet posters with a major grain of salt.  Next visit the school, talk to current students, and e-mail alumni these are people who can meet and assess their credibility.

This strategy is obviously flawed, because you will only gain the perspective from those who were successful.  By limiting your sample size to only super lawyers, you are guaranteed to only speak with those few who were lucky enough to gain legal employment. 

Additionally, your source points out something very interesting.  There is not a single super lawyer from TJSL who graduated after 2007.  The super lawyer title in itself is fairly meaningless, but this fact is important because it ensures you will never speak to a lawyer with a current understanding of the legal market.  Any opinion from a pre-2007 graduate is essentially meaningless due to the gravity of changes in the legal market since then.  Therefore, nobody on that list has an opinion which will be useful.


TJSL is a very, very bad school.  It is objectively one of the absolute worst in the country, and the obscene tuition they charge their graduates is nothing short of criminal.  If you refer to this chart, you can see that the rankings were conducted using purely objective data: employment statistics, bar passage rate, cost, etc. 

TJSL is essentially an outright scam and should be avoided at all costs.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« on: March 01, 2013, 01:01:11 PM »
I understand and respect eveything both of you are saying and I dont mean to sound like i am ignoring you. However, I am set on going to law school. I am fortunate because i have someone who i believe can get me a job at a law firm that i am presently working at as an assistant, granted that i do very well in law school. Because of that I think i find myself in a little different situation then most.

Unless he can give you an offer in writing, you should never assume a job will be waiting for you.  Things always change.  They might find they don't have space for you, or the firm might encounter financial hardships and close up shop, or (most likely) you may find you don't do as well in law school as you planned.  Everybody who goes to law school plans to work hard and get great grades.  But hard work is only one part of the story.  Law school classes are graded on a forced curve, and it's all but impossible to predict your grades because you don't know how your classmates will do.  You should always look at your potential employment opportunities if you graduated at median, because that is statistically where you are most likely to end up. 

The reason i was asking what school i should go to is because nothing in life is guaranteed, so i understand that the law firm job may not work out and in that case i wanted to know which school would give me a better opportunity to succeed.

Sadly, neither.  If you don't get a job working as a lawyer, your degrees from either of these schools is functionally worthless.  Very, very few non-lawyer jobs require (or even prefer) a JD candidate, and there are a vast category of jobs which will exclude you from consideration on the basis of being overqualified.  Nobody wants to hire someone with a JD for a non-lawyer job because they will assume that:

1) You will leave them for a lawyer job at the first opportunity, or
2) Your qualification obliges the employer to pay you more for the same amount of work (as with teaching jobs), or
3) That there is a reason you couldn't find a job as a lawyer, and you are a bad worker / have a bad personality / are incompetent, etc.

In short, the notion that a JD is a versatile degree is a long-discredited myth.  If you don't want to work as a lawyer, or cannot obtain a job as a lawyer, your options are extremely limited. 

Again, I am not advising you not to attend law school.  I am simply advising you to sit down and crunch the numbers yourself.  If you do, it will become quickly apparent that attending either school, at the prices you would be paying, is financial suicide even if you are lucky enough to find a job.  If you are intent on attending either of these schools, you should re-take the LSAT to increase your scholarship and ideally attend for free.  The maximum you should be paying (total cost of attendance, including living expenses, for all three years) should be roughly $60,000, since that is the maximum you will be paid upon graduation.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: March 01, 2013, 09:04:21 AM »
Anti your basis is that 100% of people entering law school want to be lawyers and that is far from true. Furthermore, TJSL has poor bar passage rates and as a result people who do not pass the bar cannot work as lawyers.

TJSL is on pass with the state average in California of 50% bar passage. If you knew how the bar exam works you would realize you don't get your bar results in California until November so you literally cannot be licensed to practice law until 6 months after you graduate in May. Then people are not exactly hiring during Thanksgiving and Christmas so January is when you can really start looking for work. This is 8 months after graduation so the statistics are very skewed as a result of that alone since 9 months is the reporting date.

With that obstacle alone you can see numerous flaws in the reporting of information. Now TJSL has a 52% bar passage rate which is poor and this means 48% of people cannot be licensed to practice law until results of the February Bar are released in May. So for those 48% they literally could not work as lawyers within 9 months of graduation so the information is again flawed.

To add on to this I cannot tell you how many people I went to school with who had a JD/MBA combination who repeatedly told me they had no desire to practice law and went on to work in business. Not everyone listed working in the business sector is working at Starbucks. There are also people with joint degrees in clinical psychology and other joint programs as well. On top of that I knew several students from the Middle East and South America whose parents were extremely wealthy and just wanted them to go to law school for the intellectual challenge.

When you get through all of those flaws in reporting there are numerous people who wanted to be lawyers when they enrolled, passed the bar, and went on to work as attorneys, but simply never filled out the survey like myself. So the info is terribly flawed based on the factors I listed above.

Again I am all for lawschooltransparency, but show me one other profession that keeps any detailed employment information on their graduates. Law school at the very least does that I am not aware of any other profession that does.

Now with that all said OP TJSL has the worst bar passage rate in California that is not a good sign, but the California Bar Exam is far more up to the individual than the school. In February 2011 Berkeley had a 71% bar passage rate and Stanford a 75% passage rate. . Those are both pretty good schools, but attending them does not guarantee you success on the bar exam.

Now even if you pass the bar it is a tough job market, but it is done I mean am employed as a lawyer and I am rambling on the internet at 12:30 a.m. so it can be done, but it was not easy for me. However, I truly love my job and what I do so if being a lawyer is what you want go for it. TJSL will get you a ticket to take the bar exam and if your ready to really fight and work your ass of good things can happen, but there are no guarantees.

Everything in this post is nothing but a ramble of unsupported speculation.  Nothing in your post even closely resembles an understanding of today's legal market. 

Your assertion that many people go to law school with "no intention of becoming a lawyer" has no basis in reality.  That would be akin to attending med school with no intention of becoming a doctor.  Any business-related job that does not require a JD can be acquired in ways that are easier and less expensive than attending law school, and if they do require a JD then they are counted in TJLS's embarrassing 30% placement rate.

Your argument that many graduates simply don't pass the bar is further proof of the bottom barrel quality of TJLS.  A school that cannot even prepare its graduates for the bar surely cannot prepare them for a career as a lawyer (again, ignoring the fact that over 2/3 of them will never have the opportunity to begin with). 

Any foreigners who "come for the intellectual challenge" are not attending schools like TJLS.  Furthermore, I doubt your assertion that such people exist entirely, as I can think of much easier and less expensive ways to gain intellectual stimulation.  This entire line of reasoning is moot, of course, because it is entirely based on speculation.

I strongly dislike using ad-hominem attacks, but by this point it is hard to resist coming to the conclusion that you hold a pecuiniary interest in one of these schools, and use LSD to spread misinformation to prospective students.  I can think of no other reason to ignore the great weight of evidence suggesting that for nearly everyone, attending TJLS is literally one of the worst professional and financial decisions that one can ever make.

To any prospective students who read LivingLegend's posts, you should be skeptical of his claims.  His posts are not supported by evidence and do not accurately depict the realities of the legal market today.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« on: March 01, 2013, 08:52:29 AM »
I'm not saying don't go to law school.  I'm saying don't go to these law schools without a significant scholarship.  Sit down and do the finances and you will see that paying back $200k+ in loans is literally impossible on a $40-60k salary, which is what you are all but guaranteed to make upon graduation (if you get a job at all).

LivingLegend's post is intended to put doubt in your mind as to the reliability of these statistics.  Do not fall for it.  These statistics are the most accurate representation of the legal market that we have.  Ask yourself which holds more weight in your mind: Actual statistical surveys of graduated students, or the rambling of some anonymous guy on the internet?  (Note: that includes me.) 

Look at the statistics.  Do the finances.  Make a smart decision, and realize that every dollar of loans you take it is non-dischargeable. 

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Depaul or Loyola chicago
« on: February 28, 2013, 03:11:56 PM »
Loyola is not worth $60,000 more, but neither school is worth what you would be paying.  You should seriously reconsider the notion of attending a schools that only place 40-50% of their class into full time legal jobs.



Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: February 28, 2013, 03:09:03 PM »
I don't know where you get 250,000 from their tuition is 19,000 per year (direct from LSAC)  19,000 x 3=57,000 in tuition not 250,000.

That's $19,000 per semester.  And that information is actually outdated, the actual cost of tuition is $21,500 per semester for the 2012-2013 academic year. See:

$21,000 x 2 = $42,000 per year in tuition.

Adding in living expenses, estimated by your source at $27,440 / year, and the total cost of attendance is $69,440 per year.

$69,440 x 3 = $208,320. 

Now take into account tuition increases.  From 2011-2012 to 2012-2013 the tuition increased from $19,000 to $21,000.  That's over a 10% increase.  Let's assume that rate stays constant for the next three years.  This means the cost of tuition, per semester, for 1L, 2L, and 3L year will be $21,000, $23,100, and $25,410, respectively.  This adds an extra $6,200 his 2L year, and an extra $10,820 to his 3L year.  Tuition increases will cost an additional $17,020.

$208,320 + $17,020 = $225,340

Now, I don't know too many people who have that kind of money lying around.  That means OP is taking out loans.  After loan fees (4% of principal) and interest over three years, OP will easily top out over $250,000.  (And let's be honest, it's not like OP's life would be any less destroyed if it were only $225,340).

As for the 26.7% again where do get these numbers LSAC says it is 86% employment. Now not everyone in law school has any desire to practice law and the circumstances of individual are so varied, which gets its data directly from the NALP report:

69 students out of the class of 228 got long term, full time legal jobs.  That's 30% (slightly higher than the 26.7% reported at LST, but still inexcusably bad).

And I don't understand your argument that some students "have no desire to practice law."  If one does not want to practice law, why is that person going to law school. Would you go to Med school if you didn't want to be a doctor? 

that these stats are essentially useless on top of the fact that many people fail to report their information because it is not mandatory. Do you fill out every survey that comes your way? Probably not and when you get something 9 months after you graduate from your law school it is the last thing on most grads mind.

If you have ever taken a statistics class you are probably familiar with something known as a sample size.  100% participation is not required to gain an accurate picture of the legal industry.  Additionally, the NALP report suggests that over-representation at large firms (and consequently high paying jobs) actually skews the salary data we do have in a favorable light.  Meaning, things are actually worse than they look, and things look pretty awful.The statistics may not be perfect, but they are the best that we have.  It makes a lot more sense to rely on statistics than it does to rely on personal anecdotes.

As for the lawyer yes I am, but maybe I am just some insane delusional person all it takes to post on this board is an internet connection. Therefore, OP before making a life altering decision really understand what you read on this board or others should be taken with a major grain of salt. I have never set foot on the Thomas Jefferson Law School Campus and I am assuming Anti has never attended a law school class so we are some of the last people you should be listening to when choosing whether to commit 57,000 in tuition or more importantly 3 years of the prime of your life.

I agree.  I am not asking him to listen to me, or not to listen to you.  I am asking him to listen to basic fiscal (and common) sense.  Objectively, attending this school is one of the worst investments anyone could possibly make.  It will end in abject failure for three quarters of the class, and those who are lucky enough to find work will face loan payments of nearly $2,600 a month for 10 years, or $1,500 a month for 30 years.  That is life-crushingly awful debt for anyone, but shouldering that debt while making (at a maximum) $60,000 per year is literally impossible. 

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: February 26, 2013, 07:05:49 PM »
LivingLegend, I'm not sure why you are insistent on encouraging people to make bad decisions.  Why would anybody pay $250,000 to attend a law school that only gives you a 26.7% chance of getting a job as a lawyer?   

Your list of other struggling professions is wholly irrelevant to this conversation.  OP isn't asking if he should become a CPA, or a Cop, or a Firefighter.  He is asking if he should attend one very specific law school, in pursuit of a specific career.  The answer to that question is no, because of overwhelming evidence that such a decision would be financial suicide.

Are you actually a lawyer?  Serious question. 

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