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Messages - Anti09

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Where should I go next fall? / Re: Drexel or Loyola LA
« on: March 20, 2013, 02:17:30 PM »
Maintain just ignore Anti (somehow it always gets off point and stats get discussed, which have no bearing to the actual question being asked by the OP).

You are an idiot if you think employment statistics are irrelevant to OP's decision.  They should be far and away the number one most important criteria for anyone choosing to go to law school, followed closely by cost and location.  But of course, you have all but admitted to posting on this board for the sheer purpose of shilling whatever bottom-barrel CA law school you hail from, so your opinion can be effectively discounted immediately and in its entirety. 

Where should I go next fall? / Re: Drexel or Loyola LA
« on: March 19, 2013, 06:20:12 PM »
Oh right, I forgot that 40% employment 9 months after graduation is totally acceptable.  OP, I retract my statement - feel free to attend either of these top notch legal institutions.

The nature of legal hiring is such that if you do not find work within one year, the chances that you ever will drop off dramatically.  This is not an absurd claim, it's common sense.  Would you, as an employer, be tempted to hire someone who was not able to obtain gainful employment after looking for an entire year?  There is likely a reason they have not been employed yet - poor grades, interviewing skills, etc.  That is not going to change 9 months, one year, or ten years after graduation.  The longer you are out of the job market, the less relevant your degree becomes, and the less likely it is an employer is willing to take a chance on you.

Even if, as you (baselessly) claim, 7% of grads manage to find work after those 9 months, that doesn't change the fact that the employment data from Drexel and Loyola is absolutely abysmal.  You have no more data than I do; you just simply assume that some of these students must find work, eventually, they just have to.  Obviously, I cannot definitively "prove" that they will never find work, since proving a negative (particularly concerning the future) is impossible.  But, by the same token, you have offered no data to suggest that these unemployed grads will ever find legal work - that data simply doesn't exist (to my knowledge), so we must draw inferences from the data we have.

The only difference between you and me is that you prefer to attach undeserved optimism to the employment outcomes at these schools, while I prefer to take a conservative (and in my opinion, much more realistic) approach.  Less than half of the legal class of 2011 found legal employment, a trend that shows no signs of reversing.   Given that these schools cost hundreds of thousands of dollars which, if financed by loans, is never dischargeable, I'd prefer to be on the safe side.  If you have no reservations about dropping $200k+ on a school with a 40%, 50%, or 50.1% chance of employment, that's your prerogative.  But it is still an objectively risky decision, financially and professionally, that will end in abject failure for a significant portion (if not the majority) of the class.

Where should I go next fall? / Re: Drexel or Loyola LA
« on: March 19, 2013, 02:10:25 PM »
Drexel has abysmal employment data - 43% of C/O 2011 found work as a lawyer.  Additionally, it's lack of an alumni base is very troubling.  Be very skeptical when people tell you it is "doing the right things" to be a major player, because its employment data certainly does not reflect this.

Loyola is actually worse.  42% of C/O 2011 got laywer jobs.  Additionally, the CA legal market is in absolute shambles, and the thought of targeting CA without ties is terrifying.

Do not attend either of these schools for any less than a full-ride scholarship.  It is more likely than not you will never work as a laywer coming out of either school.  Your best option is to retake the LSAT and try to get into Temple on a full ride.

Where should I go next fall? / Re: Is it ok to......
« on: March 07, 2013, 05:07:09 PM »
I would like to practice in Texas. Yes, it's Syracuse, Loyola New Orleans, UMKC $, and U. Arkansas $. Waitlisted at St. Mary's, which is not nationally ranked but known regionally. Havent heard back from Vermont or Drexel. I saw from earlier post, Vermont isnt great.

As you mentioned, the top salaries are at biglaw and biglaw is not at these schools. So, I would like to get into commercial litgation, international/business law, immigration, and/or IP.

St. Mary's and UMKC are among the schools that are good on "value". I got into some backup schools like Southern Illinois and Thomas Jefferson. But never mind that, even though TJSL has an IP Fellowship.

I get the sense that you may have simply blanketed the schools which you thought you could get into.  The thing is, all of those schools are hyper-regional.  If you go to Loyola, for example, you should expect to practice in N.O.  You can't go to Loyola and expect to have a realistic shot at Texas.  In the last two years combined, they only placed 3% into Texas.

If you want to work in Texas, you should go to school there.  St. Mary's isn't actually a bad option if you get a substantial scholarship.  They place about 80% of their class.  The market is very insular, however, and I would be wary of trying to crack that market without ties to the area.

Do not attend Thomas Jefferson or Drexel.  The former has abysmal employment data, and the latter is a very new school without an alumni base (and poor employment stats besides).

Where should I go next fall? / Re: Is it ok to......
« on: March 06, 2013, 07:09:16 PM »
Negotiating between schools is common and accepted.  Be respectful, but you are well within your rights to ask either school for more.

I see you are deciding between Syracuse (#96) and whatever #125 is (there is a 7-way tie for #119).  Based on proximity, I'm going to guess Vermont, Maine or Drexel.

Here's the thing about USNWR.  The rankings are pretty arbitrary and schools between 50-200 shift around like crazy.  Once you get into that point, rankings pretty much stop mattering.  Will going to school ranked #50 look better than school ranked #200?  Maybe, but it shouldn't be your primary concern.  If you aren't going to a school with a national name (read: the T14), you should be focusing on three primary characteristics:  Location, Employment Stats, and Cost, in that order. 

1: Location
No schools outside the T14 have a nationally portable name, so depending on the market and the school, you shouldn't expect your degree to travel further than the states surrounding yours (and lots of times, not even that far).  Go to school where you are planning to work.  That means if you go to Syracuse, you're hoping for NYC but have a real shot at being stuck in upstate NY.  If you go to Drexel, you're hoping for Philly, etc. 

2. Employment Stats
This is just as important as location.  Make sure you know your odds.  Syracuse only gave the class of 2011 a 50% chance of getting a job as a lawyer.  Look at the link below and you will see only 50.3% of the class got long-term, full-time legal jobs 9 months after graduation.  The nature of legal hiring is such that if you do not find a legal job within a year, your odds of ever working as a lawyer start dropping significantly.

It is tough to evaluate your other options, but you should assume that any school ranked at #125 will give you between a 30-60% chance of finding full-time, long-term legal work.  Look at the NALP data on to get an idea of the kind of outcomes you can expect from your options, and plan accordingly.

3. Cost
Because you stand roughly a 50% chance of finding work, it is of utmost importance that you do not take out loans for your schooling.  Legal salaries are bimodal, meaning even if you find a job, you will most likely be making between $40-60k (at MAXIMUM) upon graduation.  In general, the jobs paying $120-160k are at Biglaw firms.  No school outside of the T30 places more than a few percentage points into Biglaw, so you cannot expect that as a realistic outcome.

Ideally, you should not go to either option for more than free.  If you are taking out loans, you should pay AT MOST $60,000 including living expenses, fees, interest, tuition increases, etc.  Because of the poor job prospects coming out of T2-T3 law schools, and because of the bimodal nature of legal salaries, it is very important that you mitigate your risk. 

Additional information would also help.  Where would you like to work, and what do you want to practice?

Unfortunately, none of the schools you listed give you any substantial chance at getting back to Texas.  Most of them give you less than a 50% chance of securing full-time legal work anywhere, much less in TX:

Your best options by a mile are Louisville and UArk. However, the degrees won't travel outside their respective States, and those markets are very insular and wary of outsiders.  I would be hesitant attending either without ties to the area.

Do not attend Suffolk or NYLS under any circumstances, as their employment statistics are absolutely abysmal.

In general, the only reason you should attend any of these schools is if you can go for (basically) free.  Your total cost of attendance, including living expenses, fees, taxes, and projected tuition increases - should be under $60,000, since that is the maximum you can reasonably expect to make upon graduation.

Good luck.

Your other options are undoubtedly better schools; however, the scholarships they are giving you are not enough to make the school worth it.  Your cheapest option, W&L, will still cost over $140,000 upon graduation (after taking into account your scholarship, living expenses, and fees + interest), yet only gives you a 55% chance of working as a lawyer.

Even if you do manage to secure a legal job, you can plan on making $40-60k MAXIMUM.  If you look at the NALP salary data, you can see that legal salaries are overwhelmingly bimodal. 

Notice that over 50% of the class of 2011 was making between $40-65k.  The spike of jobs at the $140-160k range are almost exclusively reserved for Biglaw, and W&L placed barely 10% of their class into Biglaw jobs.  Therefore, if we assume you are making ~$60k (max) at graduation, you should only take out debt commensurate with that expected salary.  $140k is way, way too much.  You would be looking at monthly loan payments of over $1600 for ten years, which is flat-out impossible to afford with your expected salary. 

If you look at the employment numbers and do the math for your other schools, you will see that your other options suffer from the same problem: too expensive comparative to your likely salary at graduation.  None of the schools you are considering places more than 10-20% (with BC at the high end) of their class into biglaw; consequently, you would not have more than a 10-20% chance of securing a job with a salary proportionate to pay off your loans.  That's why UConn is your best option - not because it's the best school you got into, but because it is the only school you can attend at an affordable price.

Where should I go next fall? / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: March 05, 2013, 02:19:31 PM »
Anti if the job market is really as bad as you say I would spend a lot more time studying to get some kick ass grades opposed to ranting on here as much as you do. Good luck finding a job and passing the bar you will need it.

Thanks for your advice.  I'm actually solidly in the top quarter of my class at a highly-regarded school, so I think I'm doing ok. 

I really don't spend that much time "ranting" on here, as none of my posts took more than a few minutes to write (having done my research, I'm pretty familiar with the statistics). But I'm happy to do it, because I believe I am performing a valuable public service.  The words that you and I write will influence the decisions of future prospective students, and I want to prevent them for making an awful decision.  After all, you and I will be the ones paying for it when they default.

Also, you have twice as many posts as I do and I have been registered on LSD for over a year longer, so if anybody spends too much time "ranting," it isn't me.   

But this was fun, thanks for playing.

Where should I go next fall? / Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?
« on: March 04, 2013, 09:28:49 PM »

Santa Barbara College of law had 15 takers 13 passed (there is the website and it is not even ABA approved.

University of Michigan allegedly one of the top law schools in the world had 15 takers and 12 passed. As a result Santa Barbara must be a better school because statistics don't lie. However, as Jack and I know having taking the bar exam the July test is the real indicator, but in the bar exam administered in February 2012 Santa Barbara did better than Michigan that is a statistic.

This statistic is literally meaningless.  Only 15 kids from Michigan went to CA, so your sample size isn't exactly representative - the overall bar passage rate at Michigan is an order of magnitude higher, and you know that.  This is a red herring and irrelevant to our discussion regarding employment statistics.

Georgetown another top law school only has a 62% rate and 13% are school funded so only 49% of Georgetown grads are actually working in the legal field.

However, I am sure within 5 years most people from Georgetown who stick to it to fine.

First of all, you are once again misrepresenting statistics.  Of those 13% of school funded jobs, only 3% are Long Term, Full Time jobs counted in that 62% statistic.  The actual percentage of Georgetown grads employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs is 59%, not 49% as you claim.

Secondly, what is your point?  I agree that GULC's employment stats are bad.  They would do well to cut their class size in half.

Anti why as a law student you don't know what the real world is and whatever stats LST shows regarding a school do not guarantee you a job or even that you will pass the bar. (Unless you attend Marquette or Wisconsin, which grant you automatic admission. On the bar exam you will not be able to say I went to X school so let me pass and when your applying to jobs you won't be able to say my school had x employment rate so you must higher me. Soon enough you will be in the real world and see these statistics mean very little.

If I understand this incoherent ramble correctly, you are suggesting that going to a better school, with a better bar passage rate and better employment statistics, may not correlate to a better chance of passing the bar or getting a job.  In essence, your argument boils down to "just because the statistics say so, doesn't make it true." I mean, statistically it does, but that's not the point.

I am fairly certain by this point that you are either (a) a Troll or (b) a shameless shill for TJSL, Golden Gate University, Santa Barbara, or one of the other various bottom-barrel toilet schools proliferating in California.  However, on the off chance you are really just misinformed, I am willing to continue this dialogue only if you agree to the following provisions:

Stop deflecting my legitimate arguments with red-herring, irrelevant details.  Stop trying to cast doubt on data that you know is solid.  If you genuinely believe doubt exists, provide evidence and offer an alternate hypothesis.  Finally, I am still waiting for you to explain:

1) How a 30% job placement rate can be explained away by "lack of participation" in employment surveys.
2) What the actual employment rate is at TJSL, since according to you, the NALP data is flawed to the point of uselessness.
3) How one of the rare lucky graduates from who manages to find full time, legal work is expected to pay off $250,000 in non-dischargeable loans.

Go to UConn if you are ok with working only in CT.  Their employment numbers aren't great, but you can't beat the price of free.  None of your other options are worth what you would be paying.

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