Law School Discussion

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Messages - scottyd1982

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21
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Phoenix vs. Dallas
« on: July 26, 2006, 05:41:40 PM »
I say Dallas, just because the Mavericks beat the Suns in the Western Conference finals.

22
Black Law Student Discussion Board / Re: VOTING RIGHTS ACT RENEWED
« on: July 20, 2006, 06:45:07 PM »
I agree...but I'm not talking about abstentions, I'm talking about the stalling and objections to the bill. I'd say that, at this point in time, the Voting Rights Act should focus on potential abuses of voting rights in ALL states and in ALL precincts, rather than simply singling out those with historic discrimination against African-Americans and other minority groups.

23
Black Law Student Discussion Board / Re: VOTING RIGHTS ACT RENEWED
« on: July 20, 2006, 06:41:13 PM »
Scratch that. Never mind. Just read the news post.

24
Black Law Student Discussion Board / Re: VOTING RIGHTS ACT RENEWED
« on: July 20, 2006, 06:40:13 PM »
I actually witnessed the oral arguments for Georgia v. Ashcroft in person. Suffice it to say that the Court was rather hostile to the attorneys representing the plaintiffs.

Good news here. Although, to be at least somewhat fair to some of the Republican Senators, particularly Jon Kyl in Arizona, some of them originally stalled on this because they believed that their states were wrongfully still singled out in the new version as violators of basic voting rights. So that was really a bone to their constituents. Does anybody know if oversight of particular states is still in the new re-approved Voting Rights Act?

25
I think what he's saying is that Yale Law produces a lot of 5'10" receivers who get their asses kicked by NFL secondary, and born-again quarterbacks who last 6 games before taking up golf. Yale also has a nasty habit of losing in the SEC title game.

26
So, when I discuss law schools and rankings with "laypeople", usually in the context of explaining part of my decision to attend one school (American) over a few others (notably Pacific, Temple, and San Diego), I have started to employ an analogy with college football. Tell me if you think this is accurate. If you get offended by my descriptions of Tier 3 and Tier 4 schools, lighten up, I'm not a rankings whore, this is just for entertainment.

T14 = Perennial BCS Contenders

The T14 are the law schools that, just like USC, Texas, Miami, and Oklahoma, are always near the top. They land the best recruits, churn out the highest-ranking professionals, etc.

Law Schools: Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU, Georgetown
College Football: USC, Notre Dame, Texas, Miami, Oklahoma

Middle Tier 1 (15-30) = The 9-2 Teams (BCS Conference 2nd Place Finishers)

Middle tier 1 schools are schools that aren't quite at the level of the T14, but will occasionally sneak up and place a graduate into a firm over a T14 school. Comparable to those pesky 9-2 teams from BCS conferences that will sneak in the back door and win the Fiesta Bowl.

Law Schools: UCLA, George Washington, Boston, Wash U., Minnesota
College Football: Oregon, Wisconsin, Georgia, Virginia Tech, Kansas State

Lower Tier 1 (31-50) = 8-3 Teams and Top Mid-Majors

Lower tier 1 schools still have some national appeal, but rarely compete with the T14s, though they nip at the heels of the middle tier 1.  Comparable to 3rd and 4th place teams in BCS conferences and mid-majors that win 10+ games and finish in the Top 25.

Law Schools: American, UC-Hastings, George Mason, Baylor, Ohio State
College Football: Louisville, Cal, Texas Tech, Boise State, Utah

Tier 2 (51-100) = 6-5 and Non-BCS Runners-Up

Tier 2 schools generally don't compete with the Tier 1, but still have their niches and win moot court titles, have killer IP programs, etc.  Comparable to teams that play in the weird corporate sponsor bowls in Charlotte, North Carolina, and Boise, Idaho.

Law Schools: Cincinnati, Villanova, Santa Clara, Pacific, Temple
College Football: Iowa State, Virginia, Houston, Northern Illinois, Rutgers

Tier 3 = BCS sub-.500 and Non-BCS Middle-of-the-Pack

In the bottom half of law schools, will produce success stories, occasionally go to a bowl, but tend not to attract big recruits. Comparable to schools perennially at the bottom of BCS conferences and .500 teams in non-BCS leagues.

Law Schools: Southwestern, UNLV, New York Law School, Howard, Gonzaga
College Football: Baylor, Kentucky, Stanford, Wake Forest, Syracuse

Tier 4 = The Doormats

Tier 4 schools attract sub-3.0 candidates, have low bar passage rates, and generally aren't very reputable. Comparable to...well...

Law Schools: Thomas Jefferson, Texas Southern, Florida Coastal, St. Mary's, "National Law School"
College Football: New Mexico State, Buffalo, Army, San Jose State, Eastern Michigan

27
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Tier 2 or Tier 4
« on: July 03, 2006, 12:15:17 PM »
I agree with everyone above, and would add this: at a tier 4, you won't have any margin for error.  In fact, I think top 25%, while a great accomplishment, does not vastly improve your ability to get jobs.  You need to be like top 10%.  If you go to the tier two, and you work hard, I don't think your LSAT will matter.  If you go to the tier 4, and you have a bad year, and end up in the middle of the class, now you're really behind the 8-ball.  And if you have a really bad year, at the tier two you're near the bottom of the class, and at the tier 4 you might be out of law school.

People with law degrees get jobs. You do not need to be in the top 10% of a Tier 4 to get a job. Of course it will be EASIER to get a job in the top 10%, but according to the numbers I've seen, even the worst students at the worst law schools eventually get a job. Will you be making $150k right out of school graduating in the bottom quarter at say...Nova or Touro? No. Then again, you probably won't be making $150k graduating in the top 10% at either of those schools.

With everything being equal, go to the T2 over the T4. The caliber of the AVERAGE student probably won't be drastically different. The real difference will probably be at the top, where in T2s you have people who got into a BU or a Cornell and took the scholarship money at the T2. Those people aren't going to drop to a T4. 

Thank God somebody here has their head screwed on. The way some of you chatterboxes talk on this board, you make it seem like you either make law review at a T14 or you live in a cheesebox and work for McDonald's. You know those stats that say, "95% employed 9 months after graduation"? That means 95% of those people get (GASP!) jobs. Jobs. They get WORK. They get PAID. They can PAY OFF THEIR LOANS. They might even find a nice significant other, settle down, have kids, raise a family, coach Little League, etc. That is, until their significant other finds out that they only went to a T4 law school and divorces them.

*Sigh*.

Sometimes I want to strangle some of you.

28
"For the record, as one who has lived in SoCal, I call shenanigans on any "beaches" not next to an "ocean". Lake Michigan doesn't count, land-lubbers."

lake michigan has beaches.  there is sand, life guards, volleyball, people sun-bathing, swimming, building castles, etc.  in short, it's definately a beach. i'm not saying i'd rather swim in lake michigan than the pacific BUT i can't see what wouldn't qualify the fine beaches of lake michigan as beaches. 

AND i grew up near the ocean... so i don't want to hear any snobby costal attitude. 
 



"Snobby coastal attitude"? Huh? I was making a joke. Gee-juh-miss criminy.

How dare you compare Dana Point or Pirate's Cove to Lake Michigan. Dante reserved a special place for people like you. Gawwwwd.

29
God, I need to get a life (and/or get back to work).

For the record, as one who has lived in SoCal, I call shenanigans on any "beaches" not next to an "ocean". Lake Michigan doesn't count, land-lubbers.

Pacific Ocean

University of Washington
Stanford University
University of California-Hastings
University of California-Berkeley
University of California-Los Angeles
Loyola Law School (Los Angeles)
University of Southern California
Whittier College
Southwestern University
University of LaVerne
University of San Diego
Thomas Jefferson School of Law

Gulf of Mexico

University of Houston
Loyola University (New Orleans)
Tulane University
South Texas College of Law
Florida State University
Florida Coastal

Atlantic Ocean

University of Miami
Stetson University

Crap. I don't know. And I don't care. Leave me alone.

30
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Pacific versus Hofstra
« on: June 23, 2006, 12:01:54 AM »
Bollywood, I think my situation was very similar to yours. I live in Reno, and McGeorge is considered THE Nevada law school (even ahead of UNLV, which has an awful bar passage rate). I do have some desire to wind up back in Nevada upon graduation...but I chose to go to American which places principally in the Mid-Atlantic region. The thing is, I already have connections and ties in the Reno legal community. I currently work for a criminal defense attorney handling the most high-profile cases in town, and I can guarantee that THAT connection, moreso than any T14 experience I might have, will get me in the door quicker than a resume that says "Ron Shivenstein".

Kudos to you on following your heart. I decided the night before seat deposits were due to forego McGeorge and their $$$ offer in favor of American. Haven't regretted it to this day.

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